Swans recruiting concerns

[floppinab]

Settle folks, let's not turn this into a slanging match.

Steve's original comments a few posts back make a good point in that there is more pressure on the Swans to get their picks right given the pressure they'll be under to get their Scholarship holders successful. The other clubs have no such qualms.
And there probably is a little sour grapes in what has happened in this case. BUT, my own experience with the Swans in recent times with regard to their approach to junior footy in Sydney has closely mirrored the comments of Boodnutz. Along with the sour grapes I suspect there is plenty of anger and pissed off well @@@@ you then, with the Swans approach. My original post in this thread had a pretty comparison between what I've seen from Collingwood and the Swans if you are looking for a good example.

BTW I respect his Boodnutz right not to post details that would more than likely get deleted anyway.

OH and Nico it's Ozgood Schlatters disease, I know I had it from around 11 years onward and it pissed me off because I was a dead cert to run around for the mighty Double Blues prior to it cutting my career down far too early!

[giant]

I respect the right of those bagging the recruiters to privacy but it would be helpful (& interesting) to at least know the high level complaints they have - is it the communication, program, involvement, personnel, attitude? What is it that has ticked you off?

[Boodnutz]

I respect the right of those bagging the recruiters to privacy but it would be helpful (& interesting) to at least know the high level complaints they have - is it the communication, program, involvement, personnel, attitude? What is it that has ticked you off?

It's attitude, communication and an arrogance that borders on the unbelievable. If I sound annoyed on this issue it's because I always operated on the belief that we in AFL NSW had an affinity or loyalty to the Swans. I've been a card carrying member for years. But whether it is down to individuals within the club or whether it is a club culture, the message is almost "prove that you really want to play with us cos we aren't going out of our way for anyone". I don't mean that people should be pandered to or begged to play for Sydney, but there is a common courtesy and civility that should be adhered to. That and at least a basic interest in what's going on.

[NMWBloods]

Boodnutz is allowed to provide a different opinion and doesn't have to provide specific details as that is difficult on a public forum (some general details are useful though). However, he/she could enter the discussion with a little more politeness than his initial response to Steve, who is allowed to express his own opinion like everyone else.

[ROK Lobster]

I have two 8 year olds. Both play soccer. Neither have been approached by the Swans. We pay our (country) membership and I expect more. I blame the arrogance of the club generally, and Roos and Kirk in particular. If they are not offered $30K per year retainers for next season and beyond, and the right to run through the banner at a TS game, we are going to Richmond. This type of poor treatment would never have occured had we got Terry Wallace. Blame SSI, blame the dog. It is not good enough Sydney. Just because I live inter-state does not give you the right to treat my kids like the uncos they will grow up to be!

[swansrock4eva]

On the one hand, I too, have seen the "us vs them" side of things to some degree, but at the same time, I wonder if people sometimes expect a lot of one single club, and sometimes wonder if it's possibly too much in practical terms. The Swans seem to do a heck of a lot more work over the long-term than most other clubs seem to do - school visits, clinics etc, and I don't recall hearing of the Eagles taking their premiership cup on a state-wide tour for their non-Perth WA fans. It comes down, at times, to a question of code development vs self-promotion. Victorian clubs have it easy because there's 10 of them, their kids grow up living and breathing footy etc. SA and WA also have it a bit easier because kids grow up living and breathing footy as well - across 3 states, the code does not rely on their AFL clubs to do as much for development - they leave it to the other leagues to do that, while the AFL clubs get on with the business of being AFL clubs. Qld and NSW have it differently though - their AFL clubs seem to be expected to take on a lot more of the development work because the senior local comps aren't as strong and aren't as well-known. As a result, if the Swans or Lions do about the same as any of the other 14 clubs in terms of development work, they are seen as doing less than "they should" or giving less than some feel they may be entitled to receive simply because they have to reach more people and may not always be able to.

Ultimately the AFL clubs are there to play AFL football, and anything received beyond this could well be considered a bonus. They are there to select the best players going around based on their current and possible future needs and I would expect them to do no less at all times, and if that means a 14 year old ends up not fitting what they are looking for, why should they take them just because they are from NSW? Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of the scholarship program, but what happens if, in 5 years, not a single one of those kids on scholarships has made it onto the field or even lasted more than 2 years on a list? What has the program really achieved? Clubs are being asked to take a punt, and most seem to be embracing it well, but they will all be looking for different attributes, and selecting players based on what they do or don't see. It could be that they have a chance to talk to and possibly woo a player who might by 95% what they want, but they're still not that last 5% sold - do they still go all out and hope, or do they consider waiting to see a) how other clubs react to the kid or b) how the kid (and parents!) reacts to not being the bee's knees. I'm not saying the Swans are or aren't doing things as well as they could be, nor am I saying anyone's opinions on here are incorrect (they are, after all, just opinions), but in the end, as much as we'd like to see the Swans doing as much as possible to develop the code, they are there to play AFL footy and promote themselves as a business, so why should they have more pressure put on them to take kids under the program than any other club when all 16 clubs are required to take 2 kids each year?

[liz]

A couple of years ago I read an article about the Swans approaching the AFL with a radical idea that would put them firmly in the driving seat in terms of developing talent in the state in return for almost exclusive access to that talent once it reached senior age. Coupled with this was the idea that the Swans wouldn't be involved in the national draft to the same extent - ie so they weren't getting the best of both worlds.

The proposal was to phase such a scheme in, as clearly with the current state of development of youngsters in NSW it would be a massive disadvantage if the Swans immediately lost access to players from elsewhere.

Based on what I read, the AFL rejected the proposal and the Swans responded by saying their was no incentive for them to plough time and money into developing local talent so they would concentrate just on being a professional club.

You can see both sides of the argument. To allow the Swans to effectively opt out of the draft would fly in the face of the policy of equal access to all talent for all clubs. And if we ever got to a point where there was a strong flow of good players coming through the AFL system (ie if AFL managed to start attracting and retaining its share of the most athletically gifted youngsters in the state) it could become an unreasonable advantage for one club to have access exclusively to talent from the largest state in the land.

Realistically that scenario is years - nay decades - away. Maybe it will never happen, though the rapid progress of the sport in Queensland suggests it's not a complete pipe-dream.

The Swans' proposal was a radical suggestion to really kick-start the development. Sometimes when you want something that isn't happening naturally, you do have to take a radical step to make it happen.

Instead the AFL came up with the current apprenctice scheme as a way to spread the development effort right across the board. Certainly it has merits and shows they are trying to think of different ways to make it happen. However, you'd have to wonder why the likes of West Coast would really be interested in nurturing a 14yo who lives on the other side of the country when on their doorstep they have more mature and seasoned players who have slipped through the AFL cracks and are playing weekly on their doorstep - Matt Priddis is an obvious example.

On a different, but related issue, I wonder whether the AFL has thought about the knock-on effects on the priority rookie system. Some of the kids being taken under the apprentice scheme are likely to become those marginal draftees that would otherwise have fallen to the Swans. Assuming all the clubs are spotting the most promising talent, you'd expect that there will be almost no supply of decent local candidates to be given a chance as a rookie by the Swans when they might otherwise not have had the chance - which is really the intention of the scheme.

On the other hand, the geographical boundaries for the two schemes are different, and interestingly, the Swans have taken very few truly local rookies under the scheme recently - they are entitled to non-drafted players from throughout the state, whereas the apprentice scheme excludes the southern part of the state from where AFL players have traditionally come. Thus players like Rowe and Barlow (though not sure where Bega falls in terms of the geographic divide) wouldn't be available as apprentices but would still be available to the Swans as priority rookies. So maybe there will be little impact at all.

I do wonder if the apprentice scheme should be limited agewise so that 17yos who are looking promising can't be snapped up in their last year of under-age footy and clubs instead have to invest in the 14-16yos. But then - ironically - the one club who has stepped in and taken advantage of this apparent loop hole by apprenticing a player who could actually have been drafted last year is the Swans with Craig Bird!

[originalswan]

I coach a very successful junior team in Sydney AFL juniors. Within that team are several players who will certainly attract attention over the coming year or two under the scholarship program. And I have to tell you the experience with the Swans so far has been abysmal. The comments made by Trent Stubbs and his family in that article is spot on. To say the club is arrogant towards Sydney juniors is the understatement of the year. It has burnt me to the point of considering sending back my Swans membership card and telling them to stick their club where the sun doesn't shine. If the rest of the club has the same attitude as the recruiting team, well... I've raised issues with recruiting management about their methods and attitude and virtually got told to nick off. At this point, I'd recommend to any junior looking at the scholarship programme to pick ANY other team than Sydney.

The disappointing aspect is that Hawthorn has been chosen over the Swans (in particular when the Swans have also had interest and shown general disappointment in the juniors choice of club) in our own backyard. This alone indicates a blemish in the Swans approach to juniors, that in hindsight they are disappointed in missing out on.

It is disappointingh too that your approach to the Swans recruiting on YOUR TIME was dismissed or in your words "told to nick off".

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I hope it doesn't come back to bite the Swans hard in the future.

My question is to Boodnutz - What in particular can the Swans do to improve their perception in the marketplace with juniors? and secondly, How do they go about appeasing the numerous number of junior competitions in a vast market, which may be very costly to cover?

[swantastic]

[QUOTE=ROK Lobster;305211]I have two 8 year olds. Both play soccer. QUOTE]Bloody @@@ ball

[Boodnutz]

My question is to Boodnutz - What in particular can the Swans do to improve their perception in the marketplace with juniors? and secondly, How do they go about appeasing the numerous number of junior competitions in a vast market, which may be very costly to cover?

Good question. I believe they should visit every club in Sydney region (there aren't that many) on an organised team coaches and managers meeting night and tell them we are all on the same team. Then, act like they mean it. They don't understand the enormous groundswell of goodwill there is for the Swans among junior AFL in Sydney. If they do understand it, they don't place any value on it. They have to be part of the fabric of footy in this town. I know that sounds odd given they are the national face of the game here, but the fact is they aren't. We often refer to them as the Gorillas in the Mist. They are there, we know they are there cos we've seen them on tele and at SCG/Telstra. But they are rarely sighted elsewhere. And when they are they often leave a bad impression. I don't mean player appearances at shopping centres, autographs etc. I mean the club as a whole being a part of the game in this town and everything that goes with it.

[liz]

Good question. I believe they should visit every club in Sydney region (there aren't that many) on an organised team coaches and managers meeting night and tell them we are all on the same team.

I guess the question is how much that is expected of the other 15 clubs in the league. I wonder whether any of us know the answer to that question.

One can argue that the Swans are in a unique position (maybe the Lions are the only other club in a similar situation) given the status of the region as a developing area for AFL. But ultimately they are a professional football team with no greater access to local talent than any other club and they have limited resources to use in the many activities in which they are involved.

Realistically, how much attention would a youngster playing at u16 level in one of the TAC club teams attract from a Melbourne AFL club, apart from the normal posse of scouts watching under age football?

[Nico]

When my boys joined Aiskick in 1990, that every year we had Craig Bradley and a couple of other Carlton players come to our club on a Saturday morning on a day they weren't playing, because someone at the club knew someone at Carlton. Of course the kids loved it.

After that not a sight of a Melbourne AFL club despite requests etc. The answer was always players are too busy. Hawthorn came the area AFL club for promotions but we necer saw them. Even requests for injured players fell on deaf ears. Checking with other Auskick and junior clubs produced the same results. Yes Melbourne has a much larger football community than Sydney but back then we got the cold shoulder just like Boodnutz has. I have no idea if the situation has changed in recent years.

At our junior club in the late 90's we managed to get the U14's to do a training night at Carlton because someone knew Greg Williams.

[Lucky Knickers]

Maybe I've misunderstood but I thought this program was developed to allow the premium kids in NSW get better positioned for a future in the AFL and that all of the VIC AFL clubs have to offer scholarships. If this is the case, we should be happy that the Hawks have identified and given this kid an opportunity. I understand that the places aren't unlimited and it's not outside of the realm of possibility that the Hawks are beating up their own rep. It's also not unrealistic that the Swans had their eye on another player and only have 1 place.
The article was actually pretty poor IMO, this kid might want to one day play footy in red and white - talk about burning bridges - and one at 14years that you haven't built yet. Poor advice to this kid and his family by managers to have an article written in such a way.

[DST]

Realistically, how much attention would a youngster playing at u16 level in one of the TAC club teams attract from a Melbourne AFL club, apart from the normal posse of scouts watching under age football?

Very interesting question and I was going to post an observation like this in a response to Bloodnutz.

This situation where we have clubs interested in 14 to 15 year old's is unique to the greater region of Sydney at this stage and really is the first time (since pre draft and distruction of the old VFL zones) where clubs are having to step in and deal with 14 to 15 year old's.

In Melbourne the clubs have the TAC system to do their dirty work before they need to get involved at the later stages of drafting, so while they are monitoring and assessing players they are not actively selecting and working with them at that age, the TAC development system is.

While I agree with Bloodnutz that the Swans should be as inclusive with the local junior comp's as possible, it is unfair of him to expect the club to be able to step in and provide what are multi million dollar support structures in place with the TAC, SANFL & WAFL on it's own in Sydney.

DST

[DST]

When my boys joined Aiskick in 1990, that every year we had Craig Bradley and a couple of other Carlton players come to our club on a Saturday morning on a day they weren't playing, because someone at the club knew someone at Carlton. Of course the kids loved it.

After that not a sight of a Melbourne AFL club despite requests etc. The answer was always players are too busy. Hawthorn came the area AFL club for promotions but we necer saw them. Even requests for injured players fell on deaf ears. Checking with other Auskick and junior clubs produced the same results. Yes Melbourne has a much larger football community than Sydney but back then we got the cold shoulder just like Boodnutz has. I have no idea if the situation has changed in recent years.

At our junior club in the late 90's we managed to get the U14's to do a training night at Carlton because someone knew Greg Williams.

And there in lies the point Nico, no AFL clubs are doing what Bloodnutz is asking (outside of mandated AFL requirements) becuase the draft and dropping of zones means they now do not get anything for their spend.

Ultimately it is the AFL's responsibility to put a structure in place like the TAC Cup so NSW produces a larger quantity of higher quantity kids that are capable of playing AFL.

Yes the Swans are NSW's team, but the issue of junior development needs to be seperated from the Sydney Football Club and placed back onto the AFL to develop the structure, and I think the Sydney Football Club has finally worked this out.

DST