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  • liz
    Veteran
    Site Admin
    • Jan 2003
    • 16786

    #31
    Originally posted by Lohengrin
    I wasn't being a smart alec. I was genuinely after the information. As I posted in the other thread, I think his year has been mixed. He's had some good games and some poor games. I think he is a very good player, but talk of him being a 'genuine matchwinner', a 'superstar' or a 'champion' really overrate him in my view.

    Thanks P46 for the responses.
    I reckon P46 has provided sufficient examples of games where ROK literally was the (or a) difference between winning and losing to demonstrate he is a matchwinner on his day. No, not every week, which is why he's not an absolute "superstar" or "champion" (whatever that word means). But most clubs have just a small number of players who are capable of being the genuine difference between winning and losing several times in a season, and of being BOG (or close to it) in others. I suggest we probably have 4 on our list at the moment - ROK, Hall, Kirk and Goodes - a not dissimilar number to most other clubs.

    As to his year, the Vic selectors thought him worthy of being one of best 22 Vic players (which equates to approx one of the best 44 from all states) - based on the first half, all that's relevant for that criterion.

    The AA selectors deemed him to be one of the best 40 players for the season.

    I'd wager a fair bit that the Swans' coaches are going to deem him to be one the best 3 Swans for the season come Friday night.

    And it's not like its a season out of the blue. He was AA in 2006. If they'd picked a squad of 40 back in 2005 I reckon he'd have been in it, even though he wasn't named in the 22. He won the RB medal back in 2006. He's not finished outside the B&F top 10 since 2004 - at least.

    And putting the above aside, he brings something genuinely unique to the Swans' line-up. How many people on here bemoan the slowness of moving the ball forward. Crave for it to be kicked quickly to a one-on-one contest where Hall or O'Loughlin at least have a chance of just beating their opponent. And yet people think the one player in the team who actually does this with regularity is expendable in exchange for a pick in the mid-teens who might become a decent player in 5 years time, or might be another Willoughby. Or want to swap him for a mediocre or unproven 3rd forward, like Boyle or Dowler.

    I accept the club's hand may be forced if he decides he wants to go. And if he does go, we may have to make do with a tweenies pick and/or a mediocre player. But that's a long long way from arguing that the team will be a better unit for it, and that it will bring us closer to another premiership than seeing him play out his career in the red and white.

    (As an aside, he attracts a hard hard tag pretty much every week. Some games he is able to star despite that. In other games the tagger gets the better of him - hence his occasional very quiet games. Take him out of the team and that tagger goes to someone like McVeigh, making that next player down the chain have to work harder to have an impact. Even in the games where his direct input hasn't been great, I don't recall him ever stopping working his butt off for the 95% of time he is typically able to stay on the ground, running up and down and back up again. If nothing else, he's making the opposition coach and a player pay him due attention because they know if they let off for even a short while, he can create multiple scoring opportunities for the team in the blink of an eye.)

    Comment

    • DeadlyAkkuret
      Veterans List
      • Oct 2006
      • 4547

      #32
      Thanks Liz, just when I was starting to convince myself we'd be okay without him

      Comment

      • smasher
        On the Rookie List
        • Jan 2005
        • 627

        #33
        Tim Boyle would be worth looking at but we must remember that he comes from a very good side with a midfield that continually hit the forwards with their clearances.
        Farren Ray would not be required at the Swans IMO.We have Bird who is an outside player and he is younger than Ray and will beef up off season.

        Comment

        • Rob-bloods
          What a year 2005 SSFC/CFC
          • Aug 2003
          • 931

          #34
          As the last uncompromised draft for some time we have a real problem anyway. We must be realistic we have very little tradebait and probably need to keep the ones that are. We have to punt on some castoffs, and yes, that is hit and miss but we have done OK in the past.

          Melbne gossip here seems to be that Farren Ray might not get picked up at all.

          Tim Boyle I believe has had a few injury problems and will obviously not get a game at Hawks. He could be worth a chance but Chris Pelchen will probably want a high draft pick and we should not get sucked in there.

          If Ryan O'Keefe really wants to go then we should merely be concerned with getting good value and not cast offs. Interesting he managed himself prior appoints a manager and whooppee doo he is shopped around.

          Hall is an interesting point. He has had an awful year but is still a menacing forward and if we lose him our forward line has no grunt at all. He looked fit towards the end and probably has two years in him, on the basis we would only get perhaps a late second round at best I'd say keep him. NB Will White or any reserve be a potential forward replacement within two years you reserves watchers?

          I think the Freo list offers some interesting talent with flair and there could be some pickings there if they have a clearout. I am sure our setup will be more conducive to getting the best out of them.

          Lovett may well benefit from mentoring with Goodes'y and Micky but I think any more than a late 2nd is too much.

          Strong media gossip (off air) yesterday that O'Keefe will be part of a complex 4/5 way round robin deal and that we are trying very very hard for Kerr. They were not necessarily linked but it's hard to see how we could get Kerr anyway.
          Sports do not build character. They reveal it....Heywood Broun

          I always turn to the sports pages first, which record people's accomplishments. The front page has nothing but man's failures......Earl Warren

          Comment

          • tombomb
            On the Rookie List
            • Mar 2004
            • 36

            #35
            Originally posted by liz
            I reckon P46 has provided sufficient examples of games where ROK literally was the (or a) difference between winning and losing to demonstrate he is a matchwinner on his day. No, not every week, which is why he's not an absolute "superstar" or "champion" (whatever that word means). But most clubs have just a small number of players who are capable of being the genuine difference between winning and losing several times in a season, and of being BOG (or close to it) in others. I suggest we probably have 4 on our list at the moment - ROK, Hall, Kirk and Goodes - a not dissimilar number to most other clubs.
            Good post Liz, i agree with a lot of what you say, except i still think we need to take our chances on the draft and trade players with value while we have a chance.

            I see rok as being probably 5-6th most valuable player. behind goodes, hall, kirk, c bolton ... probably even with kenelley. But i see us with a number of up and coming half forwards, moore, vezpremi, schmidt, davis could be back in form next year, buchanan. granted they all play a little smaller than okeefe but i thought that this year he didnt spend a lot of time as a marking forward.

            I think rok will attract a lot of interest from carlton/richmond these teams have to start producing results next year. if we could get either of there first round picks for okeefe i think it would be a great result. Carlton will know that there it will be a disaster if they dont win a flag while fevola and judd are at the club i reckon.

            Comment

            • hammo
              Veterans List
              • Jul 2003
              • 5554

              #36
              Originally posted by Rob-bloods

              Hall is an interesting point. He has had an awful year but is still a menacing forward and if we lose him our forward line has no grunt at all. He looked fit towards the end and probably has two years in him, on the basis we would only get perhaps a late second round at best I'd say keep him. NB Will White or any reserve be a potential forward replacement within two years you reserves watchers?
              A few things on our forward line.

              This draft is very good for talls and KPPs. If we're lucky enough to land Steele Sidebottom or Aaron Cornelius with our first pick then we could have a ready made replacement for Hall in a few years, and possibly an immediate replacement for O'Keefe in 2009 - both will apparently be ready to play as a third tall forward straight away. Sidebottom's TAC grand final may just put him out of our reach unfortunately, but if we do trade O'Keefe for a top ten pick (or swap our 1st rounder with say Essendon or Carlton) then we're a chance.

              Goodes will eventually play as a full forward anyway. That could be brought forward to 2009 if a) Hall is traded and b) we get someone with Goodes' pace and ability into our midfield... this is where Daniel Kerr comes in.
              "As everyone knows our style of football is defensive and unattractive, and as such I have completely forgotten how to mark or kick over the years" - Brett Kirk

              Comment

              • Plugger46
                Senior Player
                • Apr 2003
                • 3674

                #37
                hammo - Do you think Sidebottom is tall enough to be a KP forward? I watched the GF last week and he had no problem playing that role at that level - I suspect he'll be a flanker in the AFL though.
                Bloods

                "Lockett is the best of all time" - Robert Harvey, Darrel Baldock, Nathan Burke, Kevin Bartlett, Bob Skilton

                Comment

                • Jeffers1984
                  Veterans List
                  • Jan 2003
                  • 4564

                  #38
                  Originally posted by Plugger46
                  hammo - Do you think Sidebottom is tall enough to be a KP forward? I watched the GF last week and he had no problem playing that role at that level - I suspect he'll be a flanker in the AFL though.
                  He's only 182cm. I reckon he'd be more of a midfielder in the AFL. Outside receiver.
                  Official Driver Of The "Who Gives A @@@@ As The Player Will Get Delisted Anyway" Bandwagon.

                  Comment

                  • hammo
                    Veterans List
                    • Jul 2003
                    • 5554

                    #39
                    Originally posted by Plugger46
                    hammo - Do you think Sidebottom is tall enough to be a KP forward? I watched the GF last week and he had no problem playing that role at that level - I suspect he'll be a flanker in the AFL though.
                    Thanks, I just saw that. He's not a key forward. Maybe that explains why we haven't spoken to him yet (according to media reports).
                    "As everyone knows our style of football is defensive and unattractive, and as such I have completely forgotten how to mark or kick over the years" - Brett Kirk

                    Comment

                    • stellation
                      scott names the planets
                      • Sep 2003
                      • 9723

                      #40
                      Sidebottom is way too small to be a KP forward.
                      I knew him as a gentle young man, I cannot say for sure the reasons for his decline
                      We watched him fade before our very eyes, and years before his time

                      Comment

                      • stellation
                        scott names the planets
                        • Sep 2003
                        • 9723

                        #41
                        Originally posted by Jeffers1984
                        He's only 182cm. I reckon he'd be more of a midfielder in the AFL. Outside receiver.
                        After watching the TAC GF I'm suprised he's that tall!
                        I knew him as a gentle young man, I cannot say for sure the reasons for his decline
                        We watched him fade before our very eyes, and years before his time

                        Comment

                        • Donners
                          On the Rookie List
                          • Jan 2003
                          • 1061

                          #42
                          TBF, there have been sides using smallish forwards as a key target, like Mark Williams, Brad Johnson, Brett Burton, etc. Hell, we did it with Craig O'Brien.

                          Comment

                          • dimelb
                            pr. dim-melb; m not f
                            • Jun 2003
                            • 6889

                            #43
                            Originally posted by stellation
                            Sidebottom is way too small to be a KP forward.
                            Perhaps we should sound out Centrebottom?
                            He reminds him of the guys, close-set, slow, and never rattled, who were play-makers on the team. (John Updike, seeing Josh Kennedy in a crystal ball)

                            Comment

                            • Nico
                              Veterans List
                              • Jan 2003
                              • 11343

                              #44
                              Originally posted by tombomb
                              I think you are being biased to label okeefe a genuine matchwinner.

                              Ray/lovett are both speedy midfielders ... which is exactly what we need.
                              Boyle is not just a playfair wannabee ... we did trade like pick 40 or something last year for playfair ... so you would have to say that pick 16+40 for rok would not be a complete disaster. Plus boyle is a great kick and is clearly surplus in a team with roughead and franklin.

                              We need to make changes to our list. we are not going to play in the grand final for the next 5 years if our one trading move is to trade nick davis for pick 60. The way i see it is that it is great that okeefe is happy to leave ... no sentimentality in booting a premiership player ... we either do something drastic this year ... or we will be stuffed for a very long time. we wont have anything worthwhile to trade for the next few years ... plus we wont have get any decent picks because of the new sides.
                              Ray a speedy midfielder? He is certainly no Speedy Gonzales and gets run down regularly. Also has a lack of awareness and questionable foot skills and slow disposal skills in the ilk of Jude Bolton. He has very little hardness. You are just wasting time and brain cells even thinking about him.
                              Boyle, you have to be gagging. He is a lead up player who is a good kick. Ball hits the ground and he has little idea. Also has a pretty poor injury history. Hawthorn must be laughing that supporters of other clubs and the press rate him. When he has played us Leo has towelled him up, so that says something.
                              http://www.nostalgiamusic.co.uk/secu...res/srh806.jpg

                              Comment

                              • Triple B
                                Formerly 'BBB'
                                • Feb 2003
                                • 6999

                                #45
                                Originally posted by smasher
                                We have Bird who is an outside player .....
                                Get a clue.
                                Driver of the Dan Hannebery bandwagon....all aboard. 4th April 09

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