Why no Indigenous recruits??

[ernie koala]

Awesome.
I won!
Not very often someone here completely caves in to another's point of view.
Good to see that you were able to take on board my arguments and flip over to agree whole heartedly with what I have been saying.

Getting a little carried away with yourself aren't you? I agree with your comments regarding education being the key to understanding and respect.
That's all.

[ernie koala]

Firstly, neither Gary Ablett nor Chris Judd display footballing skills that are particularly associated with aboriginal players (being highly physical players that are super-fit and ball magnets, with big strong bodies). Johnson does, I'll give you that. He has always reminded me of Michael O'Loughlin.

Secondly, I think it would be far more backward to simply pretend that different ethnicities don't tend to have physical features that make them more suited to different styles of play. This is where political correctness spins out of control. It's not like people are saying indigenous players are less or more important, or that football is all they're good for; they're just making the very true observation that indigenous players tend to be faster, more agile, and more creative, while being less physically imposing.

Making a differentiation between two different races isn't being racist. Otherwise, pointing out that indigenous Australians tend to have darker skin than those of Anglo-Saxan origin would be a racist comment.

On to the point of this thread: the Swans seem to be lacking a bit of speed, flair and creativity, especially in the forwardline. These are characteristics that are particularly common in indigenous players. Huff and puff all you want, it's a fact. That being the case, it would make sense that if the Swans were to look to remedying that problem via the draft, that there would be a very high chance of an indigenous player being one of those drafted. The fact that there haven't been any indigenous players drafted recently suggests that Roos, Maxfield and co aren't looking at remedying that particular problem, which happens to be a source of concern for some.

Thanks for the sanity BSA5.

[CureTheSane]

Getting a little carried away with yourself aren't you? I agree with your comments regarding education being the key to understanding and respect.
That's all.

Nah..... you can't backtrack now that I've made it clear to everyone that you have bowed to my feet and have even hinted at a bit of hero worship.
It's OK.
There is nothing to be embarrassed about.
We're friends now

[ShockOfHair]

The Age has run a long piece about indigenous players (with amazingly not a single reference to the Swans' indigenous shortage).

Some revealing comments from Michael Long and Nathan Lovett-Murray:

From little things big things grow - RFNews - realfooty.com.au

"Stephen and I lived with a family for a while,'' says Long, "but that didn't work out. We were too scared to go to the fridge. Stephen was too scared to go to the toilet. I didn't know what I was getting myself into. I didn't have a clue.

"I don't think we need to be treated differently, but I think we need an awareness among the group of where we've come from," Lovett-Murray says.

[Triple B]

Or fans of the Yankees wanting to get some more Afro-American players....maybe some of those tall ones???

The Yankees

[sharp9]

So, generally speaking, you don't think there is any difference in the way White players and Indigenous players play ?
I do, as do most others who watch or play the game, and to call my comments racist,on the basis, is pathetic.

I don't, Ernie and, yes I think that your perception (which is very, very common in this country, the norm, in fact) is racist...not in a nasty way.

Adam Goodes plays the game no different from Chad Cornes.....Michael O'Loughlin is, for all his magical skills, no different from the more magical Steve Johnson, Shaun Burgoyne's reading to the ball is no different from Chris Judd's, Cyril Rioli plays the game exactly the same as Adam Schneider....he's just faster and better...he holds his feet better than Schneider and Milne....he's more like.....G. Ablett and J. Moore in that respect, Danyle Pearce and Rhys Shaw are two very quick footballers.

If you take a long, hard look you will see that attributing the talents of indigenous players to their race is actually racist.....S.Motlop and A. Edwards share a certain flair (some would say lair) which I guess goes to prove that flair comes from being Aboriginal....or being Maori (!???!).

That Peter bell was a very, very clever player...probably because of his Korean heritage.....no?

There is no such thing as the "indigenous footballer." It is a myth. Chance Bateman is an Aboriginal man...to suggest that his football playing is any different from Mark Coughlan is, well, just not supported by any evidence whatsoever.

Do you see that in a comparison of "who is the most talented player, MacLeod or Hodge?" it is racist to do as most Australians do and suggest that a significant portion of MacLeod's talent comes from being Aborigine....on the other hand Hodge is just talented through hard work. Do you see how it works? It's insidious, isn't it?

The true measure of being racist is whether you would ascribe certain traits to a person based on his race being the same as other people who have had those attributes. For example it is clear that some aboriginal footballers did not settle well in the professional football environment, were flighty, unreliable and struggled to fulfilled their potential....Darryl White and Rhan Hooper spring to mind.

This is not racist. What would be racist would be to assume that another young aboriginal player will struggle in the same way...because of his race. That's the dangerous thought because it plays on stereotypes and not on the facts actually to hand.

To repeat...the aboriginal footballer does not, in fact exist. For every Alwyn Davey there is a David Wozjinski.

For a more in depth look at this sort of thing read Malcolm Gladwell's follow up to "The Tipping Point." It is a study of the real causes of genius in the Business, sports and the arts and is called "The Outliers"

[sharp9]

Please DO NOT quote the USA at me as advanced in any matter of race or colour.
I spend a significant amount of time there with my job (both East and West Coast, North and South) and I can assure you that all you need to do is visit any sports bar and you will hear exactly the conversations you state above.
I can tell you, I actually found myself invited to join a conversation where people were discussing the merits of recruiting in China for "more freaks like Xiao versus Zulu's 'cause those freaks can really jump".

You're right...Americans are just as racist as Australians....sorry.

But how many professional American commentators would go the same line?

[sharp9]

Firstly, neither Gary Ablett nor Chris Judd display footballing skills that are particularly associated with aboriginal players (being highly physical players that are super-fit and ball magnets, with big strong bodies). Johnson does, I'll give you that. He has always reminded me of Michael O'Loughlin.

Secondly, I think it would be far more backward to simply pretend that different ethnicities don't tend to have physical features that make them more suited to different styles of play. This is where political correctness spins out of control. It's not like people are saying indigenous players are less or more important, or that football is all they're good for; they're just making the very true observation that indigenous players tend to be faster, more agile, and more creative, while being less physically imposing.

Making a differentiation between two different races isn't being racist. Otherwise, pointing out that indigenous Australians tend to have darker skin than those of Anglo-Saxan origin would be a racist comment.

On to the point of this thread: the Swans seem to be lacking a bit of speed, flair and creativity, especially in the forwardline. These are characteristics that are particularly common in indigenous players. Huff and puff all you want, it's a fact. That being the case, it would make sense that if the Swans were to look to remedying that problem via the draft, that there would be a very high chance of an indigenous player being one of those drafted. The fact that there haven't been any indigenous players drafted recently suggests that Roos, Maxfield and co aren't looking at remedying that particular problem, which happens to be a source of concern for some.

What you don't realise is that you are proving my point absolutely....When Peter Burgoyne wades through traffic with speed and delivers beautifully it is because he is Aboriginal...Chris Judd is "highly physical, super fit and a ball magnet"

Can't you see your own attitude for looking. You talk about, speed flair and creativity being "aboriginal traits." This is just not supported by the facts. Goodes, S. Burgoyne, Bateman, MacLeod, Wanganeen, Long, O'Loughlin are not particularly fast. None of them has any more flair than Gary Ablett (X2!!!) or Daicos or Carey.

I suggest that you are right to think that, on average, Aboriginal players are faster sprinters than "others." Naturally that is not racist it would be a statement of fact (provided anyone had actually done the testing to prove that this were true)...what would be racist would be ascribing speed to being aboriginal, or worse, MAKING THE ASSUMPTION that BECAUSE you are Aboriginal you will be fast. That is, in fact, racist.

It's like saying Sandilands is tall BECAUSE he is white. The logical inference would be to say "let's recruit some white boys because they will be tall." Obviously that would be nonsense. Even if white men are, on average, taller than Aboriginal men...that is to say that the stereotype is true in general...it is racist to assume that players of that race WILL have more of that attribute than [players of other races.

It's bad enough with actual physical attributes (stereotypes) like height and speed...but it is much worse to make the assumptions about other traits...flair, decision making, maturity, integrity (however far you want to stretch it)

If you had the choice, sight unseen, to recruit Didak or Marlon Motlop to play a goal sneak, the racists would suggest getting Motlop because, being Aboriginal he must be faster and with more flair and more "natural talent." That's where this whole line of thinking leads.

To suggest that not recruiting aboriginal boys means the Swans aren't looking for speed and flair is, I'm afraid, a racist. Shaw is fast, Vez has flair...so it's not only racist on your part, it's actually factually incorrect.

Shall I go on?

[sharp9]

The Yankees

My point being that it would be very silly for a baseball team to want players of a particular ethnicity and it is well known that baseball has far less Afro Americans than other American sports.

[ernie koala]

I suggest that you are right to think that, on average, Aboriginal players are faster sprinters than "others." Naturally that is not racist it would be a statement of fact (provided anyone had actually done the testing to prove that

It's bad enough with actual physical attributes (stereotypes) like height and speed...

You seem to be getting so carried away with your own arguement, that you've even started argueing with yourself.

Can you explain to me why on the world stage (ie Olympics) Africans/ African Americans, win the vast majority of running medals. Yet people of Anglo/European and Asian origin win the vast majority (if not all) of the swimming medals?
I'll tell you why, it's because of physical differences. To acknowledge that fact is not racist.

[sharp9]

You seem to be getting so carried away with your own arguement, that you've even started argueing with yourself.

Can you explain to me why on the world stage (ie Olympics) Africans/ African Americans, win the vast majority of running medals. Yet people of Anglo/European and Asian origin win the vast majority (if not all) of the swimming medals?
I'll tell you why, it's because of physical differences. To acknowledge that fact is not racist.

Regarding running you are somewhat right....most BUT NOT ALL top sprinters are of West African background and most BUT NOT ALL top middle/long distance runners are of East Afican origin. This is because of the preponderance of short twitch (sprinting) or long twitch (long distance) muscle fibres. Acknowledging that is not racist......BUT....suggesting that BECAUSE a man is Ethiopian he WILL run long distances faster than a white Australian IS racist.

Do you see the difference?

By the way your swimming analogy actually demonstrates your personal propensity to make racist assumptions.

Whilst it is accurate to notice that a disproportionate amount of swimming medals are won by white or Asian swimmers, This has been shown to be ENTIRELY due to opportunity. 20 years ago, remember, there were NO Asian medalists...what has changed is that those countries now provide opportunity for training. Black swimmers are now starting to catch up (Black American, French, British and Surinam swimmers have recently won gold at Olympic and world championships) this is, again ENTIRELY due to opportunity which is ENTIRELY due to money and has nothing WHATSOEVER to do with race.

Black Americans from poor neighbourhoods have ZERO opportunity to become elite swimmers...they are not limited from becoming elite basketballers or runners, however.

Don't jump to conclusions without thinking things through and/or getting ALL the information.

[Ruda Wakening]

Can you explain to me why on the world stage (ie Olympics) Africans/ African Americans, win the vast majority of running medals.

You forgot the pygmies.

[ROK Lobster]

You forgot the pygmies.

Another interesting point is that white athletes dominate the paralympics. Clearly the retarded members of white races are less spastic than their coloured peers.

[The Lad]

Physical attributes is why West African origin sprinters win most of the sprint events, the fast twitch fibre point is totally correct.

East Africans, Kenya/Ethiopian/Eritira is not scientific. Most of them train at altitude in thinner air which helps configure the body's to combat fatigue better at training but their has been no physical difference proved as to why they are better middle/long distance runners. A theory of an extra bone in the hip region has been proved as fallacy.

More of the population go this sport route and want are more hungry as it's a way to make something of a life with limited opportunity, hence more of the population with the talent are fighting for it. Considering a couple of Japanese runners have been marathon champs there is some merit in this argument.

[CureTheSane]

Another interesting point is that white athletes dominate the paralympics. Clearly the retarded members of white races are less spastic than their coloured peers.