Why no Indigenous recruits??

[ernie koala]

Regarding running you are somewhat right....most BUT NOT ALL top sprinters are of West African background and most BUT NOT ALL top middle/long distance runners are of East Afican origin. This is because of the preponderance of short twitch (sprinting) or long twitch (long distance) muscle fibres. Acknowledging that is not racist......BUT....suggesting that BECAUSE a man is Ethiopian he WILL run long distances faster than a white Australian IS racist.

You can't have it both ways, here you acknowledge there is a physical difference between races. But of course when you say it it's a fact, but when I say it , it's racist.
Your zeal to call my comments racist are completely, ridiculous unfair and hypocritical.
People of different races, generally speaking, have some different physical attributes.
These differences can be inherited or due to one's circumstance (as The Lad posted regarding the long distance running ability of an East African due to training at altitude.)
You also said the Indigenous players were generally faster than others..did you not?? Which brings us to the point......
This whole discussion is about whether or not it would be prudent for the swans to recruit some Indigenous kids while we have Mick and Goodesy at the club. Now you can disagree with that and say it makes no difference having them there as mentors. Or why pick an Indigenous kid over an Anglo kid. IMO the swans have plenty of grunt in the team and could do with some more speed and skill. These two attributes are ones which a high percentage of Indigenous players who make the AFL have, even though they are picked low in the draft or rookie draft. So, for whatever reason they are being overlooked, and given low picks are a punt, why not punt on some Indigenous kids.

[BSA5]

What you don't realise is that you are proving my point absolutely....When Peter Burgoyne wades through traffic with speed and delivers beautifully it is because he is Aboriginal...Chris Judd is "highly physical, super fit and a ball magnet"

Can't you see your own attitude for looking. You talk about, speed flair and creativity being "aboriginal traits." This is just not supported by the facts. Goodes, S. Burgoyne, Bateman, MacLeod, Wanganeen, Long, O'Loughlin are not particularly fast. None of them has any more flair than Gary Ablett (X2!!!) or Daicos or Carey.

I suggest that you are right to think that, on average, Aboriginal players are faster sprinters than "others." Naturally that is not racist it would be a statement of fact (provided anyone had actually done the testing to prove that this were true)...what would be racist would be ascribing speed to being aboriginal, or worse, MAKING THE ASSUMPTION that BECAUSE you are Aboriginal you will be fast. That is, in fact, racist.

It's like saying Sandilands is tall BECAUSE he is white. The logical inference would be to say "let's recruit some white boys because they will be tall." Obviously that would be nonsense. Even if white men are, on average, taller than Aboriginal men...that is to say that the stereotype is true in general...it is racist to assume that players of that race WILL have more of that attribute than [players of other races.

It's bad enough with actual physical attributes (stereotypes) like height and speed...but it is much worse to make the assumptions about other traits...flair, decision making, maturity, integrity (however far you want to stretch it)

If you had the choice, sight unseen, to recruit Didak or Marlon Motlop to play a goal sneak, the racists would suggest getting Motlop because, being Aboriginal he must be faster and with more flair and more "natural talent." That's where this whole line of thinking leads.

To suggest that not recruiting aboriginal boys means the Swans aren't looking for speed and flair is, I'm afraid, a racist. Shaw is fast, Vez has flair...so it's not only racist on your part, it's actually factually incorrect.

Shall I go on?

When did I ever suggest that a player who is fast is fast because he is indigenous. Note the fact that I bolded the word "tend" in my post. You are making assumptions on people's views that are simply projections. You talk about ascribing speed to being Aboriginal. What does that mean? You don't ascribe speed to any other particular trait of a person. That's like saying a person has blonde hair because he speaks well. However, if it were an observed trend that people who speak well tend to have blonde hair, then it would be fair to say that if a player has blonde hair, it's more likely he speaks well.

To stretch this analogy further, say a modelling agency were looking for blonde models. Of all the blonde models looked at, a large proportion of them would speak well. If none of the models finally taken could speak well, then that would be a pretty big coincidence.

The point of this analogy is that of course, not all indigenous players share all of these qualities that we commonly associate with indigenous players. Also, not all white players lack this ability. But there it an easily observable trend to that effect. To deny this is to simply close one's eyes in the name of political correctness gone wrong. Furthermore, if a team was to look to draft certain qualities that indigenous players tend to have moreso than white players, it would be quite a coincidence if none of the players they recruited to fill this need happened to be indigenous, if considered over a decent period of time (one or two drafts wouldn't be much to go on, obviously). The three logical assumptions would be that either Roos is a racist (highly doubt that), Roos has not looked at drafting for these needs (quite possibly), or Roos has only been looking at drafting for these needs recently (probably the most likely, as it is only recently that a genuine flair, creativity and acceleration through the midfield has been obviously lacking, and needed).

Nobody is saying that every aboriginal player is more skilled than every white player. Nor is anybody saying that every white player is more physical/fit than every indigenous player. There are many players on both sides that are exceptions to the rule. Chance Bateman and Adam Goodes are two examples of genuine gut runners who love physicality. The Burgoynes play more like Judd than Rioli. McLeod is somewhere in between. Didak and Steve Johnson play like Leon Davis and Michael O'Loughlin respectively.

You are assuming that people think things that just aren't so. Nobody would make an assumption that just because a player is aboriginal he will be fast. That's putting words into peoples' mouths in a big, big way, most likely so you have an excuse to get on your high horse and have a puritanical wank.

All people are pointing out (and I'd like you to respond to this part in particular, please, since I feel you dodged the point earlier) is that the lack of aboriginal recruits recently suggests we have generally ignored players that as you yourself admitted tend to have qualities associated with aboriginal players. You have admitted that indigenous players TEND to have different qualities (e.g. "I suggest that you are right to think that, on average, Aboriginal players are faster sprinters than "others."), so if we concentrated on recruiting for these qualities, it would make sense for at least a few of our recruits to be indigenous, right?

Also, I'd like to make the point that the sort of flair a Gary Ablett Jnr displays is of a very different nature to that of a Cyril Rioli, for example. Ablett is smooth, good decision maker, and can win the ball in tight while making it look like a walk in the park. Rioli (and a disproportionate number of other indigenous players compared with white players) can create space out of nothing, kick miracle goals, burst out of packs with amazing acceleration (even if the top speed isn't that great, which is another thing that often separates the speed of an indigenous player with that of a white player, as white players tend to have a better top speed but worse acceleration), etc, etc. Gabllet Jnr has a ballwinning flair. Rioli has a creative flair.

And another point, your separation of physical features (like height and speed) and playing styles is completely arbitrary. The ability to manoeuvre "phonebox style" is just as likely to be a result of genetics as height or speed. Creativity would be partially so. Both would rely on factors such as reflex speed, agility, and peripheral vision, all of which are physical traits. Maturity and integrity are separate matters, but these are also trends (depending on what aspects of integrity you refer to). This is more a cultural thing, however. It has been shown that a greater percentage of indigenous players struggle to cope with the non-playing aspect of being an AFL footballer, most likely due to the high proportion of them that come from quite sheltered backgrounds (as many indigenous players themselves have testified to). That's not intrinsically because they are indigenous, but it's because culturally speaking, indigenous populations are often isolated due to cultural differences, and they're the minority, so they are introduced to the majority, so to speak, and sometimes struggle. It would be exactly the same if the roles were reversed, and indigenous Australians were the majority.

[liz]

That's like saying a person has blonde hair because he speaks well. However, if it were an observed trend that people who speak well tend to have blonde hair, then it would be fair to say that if a player has blonde hair, it's more likely he speaks well.

To stretch this analogy further, say a modelling agency were looking for blonde models. Of all the blonde models looked at, a large proportion of them would speak well. If none of the models finally taken could speak well, then that would be a pretty big coincidence.

Sure, but if you were a modelling agency looking to recruit blondes, even if you had observed a trend of blondes speaking well, you'd still look at photos rather than listen to tapes of their voices to find what you want - ie you identify a trait you want and look for that, not some other indicator. The only reason you might depend on tapes is if you don't have any photos. But the risk of not getting what you want is greater than if you can look at photos.

I think it is fair enough to identify that the Swans could do with a bit more pace, and someone lightening quick would be a great asset. Roos knew that when he tried to get Lovett and then got Shaw when Lovett didn't want to move. And I suspect he'd like another couple to come through the ranks too.

So that means that the recruiters should be given the brief to go out and find some lightening quick players, preferably with decent skills too. But to switch the analogy back to football, if they want pace and flair, why don't they do and find pace and flair, rather than using "indigenous" as a proxy. Sure, if they do go find such players and they happen to be indigenous, it wouldn't come as a surprise, since observation tells us that a high proportion of the very quick players in the AFL are indigenous. But since they do have access to "photos" (or in this case, spend hours and hours watching potential draftees play) why not base it on that, rather than using a proxy?

I think that's what those agin the OP have been trying to say. What we need is pace and flair so we should go looking for pace and flair. If that happens to come in the shape of an indigenous player, great. But that still doesn't take away from the fact they should be looking for pace and flair.

[BSA5]

Sure, but if you were a modelling agency looking to recruit blondes, even if you had observed a trend of blondes speaking well, you'd still look at photos rather than listen to tapes of their voices to find what you want - ie you identify a trait you want and look for that, not some other indicator. The only reason you might depend on tapes is if you don't have any photos. But the risk of not getting what you want is greater than if you can look at photos.

I think it is fair enough to identify that the Swans could do with a bit more pace, and someone lightening quick would be a great asset. Roos knew that when he tried to get Lovett and then got Shaw when Lovett didn't want to move. And I suspect he'd like another couple to come through the ranks too.

So that means that the recruiters should be given the brief to go out and find some lightening quick players, preferably with decent skills too. But to switch the analogy back to football, if they want pace and flair, why don't they do and find pace and flair, rather than using "indigenous" as a proxy. Sure, if they do go find such players and they happen to be indigenous, it wouldn't come as a surprise, since observation tells us that a high proportion of the very quick players in the AFL are indigenous. But since they do have access to "photos" (or in this case, spend hours and hours watching potential draftees play) why not base it on that, rather than using a proxy?

I think that's what those agin the OP have been trying to say. What we need is pace and flair so we should go looking for pace and flair. If that happens to come in the shape of an indigenous player, great. But that still doesn't take away from the fact they should be looking for pace and flair.

I agree with all that. My point is that, given that the sorts of qualities we need are found most often in indigenous players, the fact that we haven't got any indigenous players suggests that Roos and co have not gone to much effort to recruit for this need. If we had a couple of Steve Johnson-types in the team, then it wouldn't be an issue, but the fact that we don't begs the question, "why?". When people say indigenous players, what they really mean is indigenous-type players. Usually they will be indigenous, sometimes they won't be, but either way, it is the TYPE of player that people are after, a fact which is getting lost on those looking for witches to burn. The relevance of Goodes and O'Loughlin being potential mentors is that perhaps some of the risks associated with culture shock, etc, involved in recruiting many (not all) indigenous players could be overcome by having two indigenous players of such experience, and that this is a potential resource going to waste. That's not to say that Goodes and O'Loughlin can't and don't mentor white players, nor that indigenous players can't be mentored by white players at the same time, but there is value to Goodes and O'Loughlin sharing their personal experiences of being a young indigenous player in a new city, attracting the spotlight, etc.

I'm not saying I agree with this criticism of Roos' recruitment, by the way, but I can understand the logic behind it, and it certainly isn't racist.

[AnnieH]

Another interesting point is that white athletes dominate the paralympics. Clearly the retarded members of white races are less spastic than their coloured peers.

Can you once again come and clean up my keyboard.
I've told you a dozen times not to say funny things when I'm drinking!!

[AnnieH]

Who was the last indigenous kid we took a punt on?

Freddie Campbell?

Where is Freddie?

[liz]

Who was the last indigenous kid we took a punt on?

Freddie Campbell?

Where is Freddie?

Freddy was taken a couple of picks before another youngster. He turned out not bad!

I think Ernie's nephew Dwayne Simpson was drafted subsequently, though possibly only a year or two later.

[sharp9]

When did I ever suggest that a player who is fast is fast because he is indigenous. Note the fact that I bolded the word "tend" in my post. You are making assumptions on people's views that are simply projections. You talk about ascribing speed to being Aboriginal. What does that mean? You don't ascribe speed to any other particular trait of a person. That's like saying a person has blonde hair because he speaks well. However, if it were an observed trend that people who speak well tend to have blonde hair, then it would be fair to say that if a player has blonde hair, it's more likely he speaks well.

To stretch this analogy further, say a modelling agency were looking for blonde models. Of all the blonde models looked at, a large proportion of them would speak well. If none of the models finally taken could speak well, then that would be a pretty big coincidence.

The point of this analogy is that of course, not all indigenous players share all of these qualities that we commonly associate with indigenous players. Also, not all white players lack this ability. But there it an easily observable trend to that effect. To deny this is to simply close one's eyes in the name of political correctness gone wrong. Furthermore, if a team was to look to draft certain qualities that indigenous players tend to have moreso than white players, it would be quite a coincidence if none of the players they recruited to fill this need happened to be indigenous, if considered over a decent period of time (one or two drafts wouldn't be much to go on, obviously). The three logical assumptions would be that either Roos is a racist (highly doubt that), Roos has not looked at drafting for these needs (quite possibly), or Roos has only been looking at drafting for these needs recently (probably the most likely, as it is only recently that a genuine flair, creativity and acceleration through the midfield has been obviously lacking, and needed).

Nobody is saying that every aboriginal player is more skilled than every white player. Nor is anybody saying that every white player is more physical/fit than every indigenous player. There are many players on both sides that are exceptions to the rule. Chance Bateman and Adam Goodes are two examples of genuine gut runners who love physicality. The Burgoynes play more like Judd than Rioli. McLeod is somewhere in between. Didak and Steve Johnson play like Leon Davis and Michael O'Loughlin respectively.

You are assuming that people think things that just aren't so. Nobody would make an assumption that just because a player is aboriginal he will be fast. That's putting words into peoples' mouths in a big, big way, most likely so you have an excuse to get on your high horse and have a puritanical wank.

All people are pointing out (and I'd like you to respond to this part in particular, please, since I feel you dodged the point earlier) is that the lack of aboriginal recruits recently suggests we have generally ignored players that as you yourself admitted tend to have qualities associated with aboriginal players. You have admitted that indigenous players TEND to have different qualities (e.g. "I suggest that you are right to think that, on average, Aboriginal players are faster sprinters than "others."), so if we concentrated on recruiting for these qualities, it would make sense for at least a few of our recruits to be indigenous, right?

Also, I'd like to make the point that the sort of flair a Gary Ablett Jnr displays is of a very different nature to that of a Cyril Rioli, for example. Ablett is smooth, good decision maker, and can win the ball in tight while making it look like a walk in the park. Rioli (and a disproportionate number of other indigenous players compared with white players) can create space out of nothing, kick miracle goals, burst out of packs with amazing acceleration (even if the top speed isn't that great, which is another thing that often separates the speed of an indigenous player with that of a white player, as white players tend to have a better top speed but worse acceleration), etc, etc. Gabllet Jnr has a ballwinning flair. Rioli has a creative flair.

And another point, your separation of physical features (like height and speed) and playing styles is completely arbitrary. The ability to manoeuvre "phonebox style" is just as likely to be a result of genetics as height or speed. Creativity would be partially so. Both would rely on factors such as reflex speed, agility, and peripheral vision, all of which are physical traits. Maturity and integrity are separate matters, but these are also trends (depending on what aspects of integrity you refer to). This is more a cultural thing, however. It has been shown that a greater percentage of indigenous players struggle to cope with the non-playing aspect of being an AFL footballer, most likely due to the high proportion of them that come from quite sheltered backgrounds (as many indigenous players themselves have testified to). That's not intrinsically because they are indigenous, but it's because culturally speaking, indigenous populations are often isolated due to cultural differences, and they're the minority, so they are introduced to the majority, so to speak, and sometimes struggle. It would be exactly the same if the roles were reversed, and indigenous Australians were the majority.

In short I disagree that race plays any part in the way the players play.

You think that the difference in Rioli and Ablett's talents are attributable to race....I do not.

You are in the clear majority in this country, I acknowledge.

My other point is a DIRECT RESPONSE TO THIS THREAD...I am not putting words in people's mouths.....there are some on here who suggest that we should recruit more Aboriginal players in order to get more speed and flair into the team...

TO REPEAT FOR THOSE WHO CANNOT READ...

Even if a stereotype is true IN GENERAL (ie Aboriginal players are faster on average than white players) it is racist to suggest recruiting an aboriginal player you have never seen just because you ASSUME he will be faster than an alternative white player - this is the logical endpoint of the "Aboriginal players are faster and have more flair than white players and that fact that we don't have any young ones in the team means we are not recruiting for these attibutes."

And, actually to refer to my earlier statement YES I think that suggesting that some of Rioli's skills are due to his race is racist and denigrating and derogatory (Even though he himself might not think so).

I realise that these are strong words but I (and the people who study how talent is created) feel very strongly that Rioli's level of skill is due entirely to how hard and for how may hours and in what manner he has practised his skills and built on his natural attribute of enormous speed.

[sharp9]

You can't have it both ways, here you acknowledge there is a physical difference between races. But of course when you say it it's a fact, but when I say it , it's racist.
Your zeal to call my comments racist are completely, ridiculous unfair and hypocritical.
People of different races, generally speaking, have some different physical attributes.
These differences can be inherited or due to one's circumstance (as The Lad posted regarding the long distance running ability of an East African due to training at altitude.)
You also said the Indigenous players were generally faster than others..did you not?? Which brings us to the point......
This whole discussion is about whether or not it would be prudent for the swans to recruit some Indigenous kids while we have Mick and Goodesy at the club. Now you can disagree with that and say it makes no difference having them there as mentors. Or why pick an Indigenous kid over an Anglo kid. IMO the swans have plenty of grunt in the team and could do with some more speed and skill. These two attributes are ones which a high percentage of Indigenous players who make the AFL have, even though they are picked low in the draft or rookie draft. So, for whatever reason they are being overlooked, and given low picks are a punt, why not punt on some Indigenous kids.

YOU'RE NOT READING WHAT I SAID ERNIE!!!!!!!!

People of different races have different physical attributes ON AVERAGE.
people of different races have different levels of alcoholism, violence, diabetes, jail, etc, etc, etc, etc....

To state so is not racist....

It is, however, racist to assume that any individual from that race WILL have more of that attribute than someone from another race....

It is a very important distinction and if you do not understand it you will say and do things which are racist.

I stated this very clearly in another post and you didn't seem to understand then so if you don't now, that's fine.

[Primmy]

Freddy was taken a couple of picks before another youngster. He turned out not bad!

I think Ernie's nephew Dwayne Simpson was drafted subsequently, though possibly only a year or two later.

Freddie eventually went back to Alice having made a decision to go home to his family and pregnant girlfriend (both very young) - He had been traded by Eade down south I think but Melbourne life didn't work for him and he was released after one year. I liked him as a player.

Dwayne just didn't travel well - Perth to Sydney was just too big a transition for him. He went back after his initial contract was up. Not sure if the WAFL picked him up.

[liz]

Dwayne just didn't travel well - Perth to Sydney was just too big a transition for him. He went back after his initial contract was up. Not sure if the WAFL picked him up.

IIRC Freo actually gave us a draft pick at trade table for Simpson.

Also realised I forgot about the Cookie Monster. Exciting and tough player for us (if a little inconsistent with his kicking), even better for Freo. One of my favourites.

[AnnieH]

IIRC Freo actually gave us a draft pick at trade table for Simpson.

Also realised I forgot about the Cookie Monster. Exciting and tough player for us (if a little inconsistent with his kicking), even better for Freo. One of my favourites.

How I wish Cookie had stayed with us. He played really well for Fweo - a bit like "a change does you the world of good", but geez I wish he'd stayed.

[reigning premier]

Another interesting point is that white athletes dominate the paralympics. Clearly the retarded members of white races are less spastic than their coloured peers.

So there IS a direct correlation between the level of spasticity in athletes and the pigment of their skin.

Hold the phone, We'll get Stuey Maxfield over to those Paralympics and recruit us some "Athletes" that we can convert to AFL (ala Mike Pyke)

[Hartijon]

Its a shame we can't have an open honest discussion about indigenous players without the accusation of racism killing it. This "cheap shot " kills any serious debate and makes us all into automatons who keep their real opinions to themselves which in my opinion sponsors real racism! Better to have views aired and expressed than forced underground. Living overseas makes you realise Australians are the least racist people on the planet. Every pharmacy in Thailand is full of creams to make your skin whiter and black people are actively discriminated against in a way Australia would not permit.I could go on but won't as the inevitable politically correct (gone wrong) response will come to bore me even more!

[timbo]

James Gwilt ...pick 63
Josh Gibson.....mature rookie

errr. about as indigenous as Harry O Brian is. Is it because they are dark?