Swans v. Port Game Thread

[aardvark]

The Vogels situation is completely irrelevant.

Heath had a chance and while solid, didn't really grab his chance.
What I don't understand, is your argument for these players to replace Whites position in the team when they don't play KPF. It just doesn't add up.

KP players don't always have to be big. And Vogels is not irrelevant. This club has a habit of persisting with lost causes. I think Vez would do better at FF at the moment but i'm happy to concede defeat. I also hope you are right about White. I look forward to reviewing this thread in 12mths time.

[liz]

Plenty of very good key forwards have been erratic and inconsistent until close to their mid-20s.

For example, Fevola didn't have a break out season until 2003 - his 5th year in the AFL and even then it was another couple of years before he was up there in the top rank of AFL forwards. Barry Hall's first season with the Swans was his 7th in the AFL, after being promising but erratic for a while with the Saints. He proceeded to improve immeasurably from 2002 to 2005.

If you look at his peers from the 2006 draft, I don't think a single KP forward is yet setting the world on fire. Gumbleton is at least now playing footy after lots of injuries, is showing glimpses of his talents but drifts in and out of games. Hansen has had lots of opportunities and this season is finally starting to look at home but he is hardly holding together the Roos forward line. Mitch Brown is struggling to have any kind of impact at West Coast (and yes he lost a year to a knee reco but he's been back from that for a couple of years). Kurt Tippett was hailed as the Crows' great tall hope at the end of last year but he's struggling to back it up at the moment. Even Tom Hawkins has done little more than provide odd glimpses of the talent that was drooled over at the time he was drafted. Jack Riewoldt is clearly the key forward from that draft playing the best footy at the moment, and his last month has been spectacular. But even 6 weeks ago he was struggling to contribute very much.

I very much doubt the coaches of Essendon, the Roos, the Cats, Crows and Eagles are wringing their hands, having decided these players will get no better. I suspect they are more likely to be licking their lips in anticipation of what the next few seasons will bring in these players development.

[Primmy]

He has been here since the 2006 draft, so he's been here since the 2007 season. He had a magoos season in 2007, a magoos with a taste season in 2008, worked his way into the side in 2009, is a regular part of the side in 2010. He is 22 1/2 years old and a key position size guy, who has spent probably close to half his senior games playing as a ruckman instead. He plays as the third forward, and is about third on our goalkickers by both total and average per game.

If you look at that and think it is an abnormal development curve for a guy taken at pick 79, and that the guy can't possibly get any better than he is now, then there's a hell of a lot of guys in the AFL that people should just give up on now. The Swans went after Bradshaw because he's a very good player, and gave him a 3 year contract- I think it's fair to say that's because they think it'll be 3 years until White can hold down FF fulltime, and I think that's a normal development curve. 3 years playing with Bradshaw and White would only be 25 going into the 2013 season and could potentially be a 4/5 year option as a FF.

And no, this isn't all Jesse love- this is guy who played most of his footy as a forward love.

Go Stella go!!! Exactly.
Jesse gets better, he hasn't plateauxed (sic). How long did it take Macca to win me? Years and years. But as long as the coaches believed in him, I had to ride along. Jesse was a huge unit at age 18, but he was a kid. He is improving, his application is at such a greater level this year, his marking is either very good or very poor, almost running in lines with Goodsey's this year. Sometimes patience is what it takes......from Jesse, the coaches,. the Red and Whiters.....etc. And please remember, Rocket barely rated Goodsey for his first 4 years.

[aardvark]

Joey is an absolute star in my mind, a very exciting addition to the group. I know that they didn't really want him to go but I bet a lot of Hawks fans are scratching their heads over it given his performance this season.

I'm amazed at his clearance winning ability; he and Bird in the middle is an exciting option, both guys that always seem to find the time and space to hit a useful target with their clearance rather than just banging it on the boot or handballing it to a guy standing next to them.

Agree totally. Joey and Mummy, recruits of the year. Old Kanga would have been proud of Joey last night , especially the 50 metre snap.

[Red]

He has been here since the 2006 draft, so he's been here since the 2007 season. He had a magoos season in 2007, a magoos with a taste season in 2008, worked his way into the side in 2009, is a regular part of the side in 2010. He is 22 1/2 years old and a key position size guy, who has spent probably close to half his senior games playing as a ruckman instead. He plays as the third forward, and is about third on our goalkickers by both total and average per game.

When Bradshaw plays I'd say Braddy is the 1st, 3rd and 4th choice forward 50 target and he averages 10 disposals per game and 5.6 marks resulting in 3.1 goals per game, White averages 8.1 from 2.8 and kicks 1 goal per game. White is lamented for his second efforts, but he actually averages more disposals that don't come from marks than Bradshaw does (more tackles, too).

If you look at that and think it is an abnormal development curve for a guy taken at pick 79, and that the guy can't possibly get any better than he is now, then there's a hell of a lot of guys in the AFL that people should just give up on now. The Swans went after Bradshaw because he's a very good player, and gave him a 3 year contract- I think it's fair to say that's because they think it'll be 3 years until White can hold down FF fulltime, and I think that's a normal development curve. 3 years playing with Bradshaw and White would only be 25 going into the 2013 season and could potentially be a 4/5 year option as a FF.

And no, this isn't all Jesse love- this is guy who played most of his footy as a forward love.

Very nice. A well-written argument backed up by insightful stats.

[stellation]

Agree totally. Joey and Mummy, recruits of the year. Old Kanga would have been proud of Joey last night , especially the 50 metre snap.

That really was a wonderful shot on goal!

For a guy that had the main knocks of can't kick, too slow he really does seem pretty reliable off the boot (yes, he has shanked a few) and always seems to have plenty of time to do what he wants. Doesn't seem to getburnt going the other way, too.

[ernie koala]

Thought JK was really good and needs more love in the thread.

2 goals help.

Totally agree, he's a fine player now and will only get better. A fantastic pickup for very little, as was Mummy.
Can't wait for the Mummy - Jolly matchup next game.
I'll also buy into the White debate...He's got plenty of upside. Stella put it best, backed up by facts.

[Bas]

Wasn't that awesome? there were two Port players in front of him and he just launched himself past them - a fair summary of the teams' respective intensity I think. That said, it was a quiet night for the fella.

I thought Jesse was heavily marked last night and I wasn't disappointed by his performance. We won by 6 goals without him or another key forward contributing. That's good.

[Captain]

You can always tell when someone is losing an argument, they start name calling with people that don't agree with them.

Yes, yes, that's it.

White created a contest and bought the ball to the ground. My bad, he must have had an excellent game.

[DST]

White is frustrating at times, but we are going to play 3 talls forward when we can and at this stage he along with Goodes and Bradshaw is one of the three. That three combo is good, as Bradshaw is the stay at home option, White is capable of playing as a roaming CHF (who looks to be good coming back towards goal) and Goodes can then just float wherever needed.

However if LJ gets through another month of football in the ressies and is still showing the form that he is presently showing then it maybe time to elevate him for White to see how he goes.

This type of competition for spots is good for the side and the youngsters development as they are not getting cheap games.

As for those saying Campbell Heath might want to leave, why so? He is effectively in his first year, been given a taste of senior football and looks very much capable of replacing C Bolton as a key defender/ third tall option to go with Grundy and LRT.

DST

[liz]

That really was a wonderful shot on goal!

For a guy that had the main knocks of can't kick, too slow he really does seem pretty reliable off the boot (yes, he has shanked a few) and always seems to have plenty of time to do what he wants. Doesn't seem to getburnt going the other way, too.

His kicking for goal for us this year has been excellent, whether from a set shot or a snap. He has also been excellent at finding a target inside 50. His few sloppy field kicks earlier in the season are now in the dim and distant past. It seems like a remarkable bit of luck for us that the Hawks would deem such a young and rapidly developing midfielder to be surplus to their requirements.

[Primmy]

His kicking for goal for us this year has been excellent, whether from a set shot or a snap. He has also been excellent at finding a target inside 50. His few sloppy field kicks earlier in the season are now in the dim and distant past. It seems like a remarkable bit of luck for us that the Hawks would deem such a young and rapidly developing midfielder to be surplus to their requirements.

He is a lot better in round 12 than round 1. He also plays with almost a smile on his face. In fact I think he has got better the more he is believed in, he is definitely a quick mover, thinks on his feet, and the shanks are proportionately fewer mid year than early on - it just took a bit of faith. Thank you Hawks.

[BSA5]

Out of interest, when Braddy returns, I wonder if White might benefit from a run on the ball, not as a ruckman, but a big bustling midfielder. Or maybe on the wing. He's certainly got the pace and agility to keep up there. Set up inside 50 around CHF, attract a defender, and then sprint up field and try to affect the contest, win some clearances with brute strength. Maybe he and Goodesy could rotate? Bradshaw at FF, White and Goodes on the half-forward line, and at any one point, one plays as a genuine CHF, the other pushes up into the midfield immediately and tries to win the ball.

Personally I can't see it happening, but I'd like it. Give White a quick crash-course in the midfield over the next two weeks, making use of the bye. Could be the sort of thing that just gives us an edge, messes with the opposition's rotations, and keeps our forwardline open (which has been a problem all year, IMO).

[Matty10]

Out of interest, when Braddy returns, I wonder if White might benefit from a run on the ball, not as a ruckman, but a big bustling midfielder. Or maybe on the wing. He's certainly got the pace and agility to keep up there. Set up inside 50 around CHF, attract a defender, and then sprint up field and try to affect the contest, win some clearances with brute strength. Maybe he and Goodesy could rotate? Bradshaw at FF, White and Goodes on the half-forward line, and at any one point, one plays as a genuine CHF, the other pushes up into the midfield immediately and tries to win the ball.

Personally I can't see it happening, but I'd like it. Give White a quick crash-course in the midfield over the next two weeks, making use of the bye. Could be the sort of thing that just gives us an edge, messes with the opposition's rotations, and keeps our forwardline open (which has been a problem all year, IMO).

White certainly leads out well from the forward line (busting the occasional pack), but around the ground he seems to stay upright and outside the contest to a large degree. Perhaps a run on the ball in the reserves could teach him a new way.

However, for some reason I get this horrible image in my mind of White coming off the square and illegally cleaning someone up and missing weeks as a consequence (maybe I think of him as a bit clumsy, or awkward, with his frame at times). I'd have to watch with my eyes closed.

[dimelb]

Not long back from the G watching Jack the Ripper dissect West Coast. Our Jesse is not in his class - yet, but no-one else is either. And I agree with Stella, and with Liz, and would add Josh Kennedy (the WC one) to her formidable list of KPFs who are taking time to develop. I'd add that their development is almost never uniform, on a steady upward gradient, but usually more of a two-steps-forward-one-step-back variety. If we traded him elsewhere it would come back to bite us on the bum bigtime imho.