Structures What the ?

[ernie koala]

I don't understand everyone's fascination with leg speed. Sure it would be nice to have some speedsters, but in reality quick, clean ball movement will beat the fastest runner every day.

The two elements go hand in hand. Speed isn't everything but.....
You won't get , consistent, quick clean ball movement if your players are under pressure all the time from quicker opponents.
So I would argue that a player who can run away from an opponent, using his leg speed, has a distinct advantage over a slower player.
The slower player doesn't have the option of being able to run away from pressure.

[wolftone57]

I agree with Chuckie in the first post on this subject. I hated the way we were playing & we had plenty of ball in our half in the first half it just kept coming back. That bleeding defensive zone from full forward to the centre is hopeless & definitely not working. I have been saying that for weeks & the coach persists with it. We were outplayed, outcoached & outgunned. I don't think the RAT is a particularly great coach & I doubt he'll be the one to take the Blues all the way but he has a very good Coaching Panel & they did their homework on us. Pity our Coaching Panel either didn't on them or were just hopeless. A thrashing like that one needs an analysis & I am of the opinion there will be no Premierships under Horse & his Coaching team & the only way we can go under them is down. If we hadn't won all those closies we would be sitting very close to bottom. We did win 'em because we have the talent there not due to any great coaching effort. The style of coaching is old & ultra defensive & doesn't work on any side better than bottom 8 & only works on them because of the raw tallent in our side.

[wolftone57]

The two elements go hand in hand. Speed isn't everything but.....
You won't get , consistent, quick clean ball movement if your players are under pressure all the time from quicker opponents.
So I would argue that a player who can run away from an opponent, using his leg speed, has a distinct advantage over a slower player.
The slower player doesn't have the option of being able to run away from pressure.

If players back each other up & shepherd (remember that word), we used to do a lot if it, then share the ball speed doesn't become a factor in the clinches. It is speed of movement by hand, Brain & Body not legs that count then. Leg speed becomes a major factor on big grounds in the open spaces. The reason we got opened up was not because of pure speed it was the overlapping player, then speed is a major factor. The trouble is if we had of been playing a one on one game instead of zoning off most of the overlaps would never have happened. They had some really big guys too & we didn't match up too well on them, especially wgen they pulled both rucks into the forwardline. We were opened up along the flanks constantly because they had loose runners & it wasn't because they were fast, even though on many occasions they were, it was beca loose marking due to a stupid Forward Defensive Zone or a Centre Square Set Up that is abysmal

[wolftone57]

The two elements go hand in hand. Speed isn't everything but.....
You won't get , consistent, quick clean ball movement if your players are under pressure all the time from quicker opponents.
So I would argue that a player who can run away from an opponent, using his leg speed, has a distinct advantage over a slower player.
The slower player doesn't have the option of being able to run away from pressure.

If players back each other up & shepherd (remember that word), we used to do a lot if it, then share the ball speed doesn't become a factor in the clinches. It is speed of movement by hand, Brain & Body not legs that count then. Leg speed becomes a major factor on big grounds in the open spaces. The reason we got opened up was not because of pure speed it was the overlapping player, then speed is a major factor. The trouble is if we had of been playing a one on one game instead of zoning off most of the overlaps would never have happened. They had some really big guys too & we didn't match up too well on them, especially wgen they pulled both rucks into the forwardline. We were opened up along the flanks constantly because they had loose runners & it wasn't because they were fast, even though on many occasions they were, it was beca loose marking due to a stupid Forward Defensive Zone or a Centre Square Set Up that is abysmal

[Hartijon]

The best coaches develop a structure and a game plan around the capabiity of the players around them. There is no point just year after year adjusting your game plan to match what collingwood have done, what geelong did before them.

It wasnt that long ago that everyone was criticizing Malthouse for collingwoods chip around the edge of the ground game style when it seemed that the only way to play was direct handball through the centre. Not saying that I have the answer but I also think it is a mistake to try to make our gamestyle like the percevied "only way to win" of the time. I think we have done a little too much of this. Arent we better off saying our best forward structure is this and to take advantage of it we need to play like this / bring the ball in this way. If it fails at least you have played to your players strengths but if you just copycat all the time all you do is highlight your lists weaknesses as you are playing them to a style that suits another team.

+++++ 1 Amen brother!

[Hartijon]

I agree with Chuckie in the first post on this subject. I hated the way we were playing & we had plenty of ball in our half in the first half it just kept coming back. That bleeding defensive zone from full forward to the centre is hopeless & definitely not working. I have been saying that for weeks & the coach persists with it. We were outplayed, outcoached & outgunned. I don't think the RAT is a particularly great coach & I doubt he'll be the one to take the Blues all the way but he has a very good Coaching Panel & they did their homework on us. Pity our Coaching Panel either didn't on them or were just hopeless. A thrashing like that one needs an analysis & I am of the opinion there will be no Premierships under Horse & his Coaching team & the only way we can go under them is down. If we hadn't won all those closies we would be sitting very close to bottom. We did win 'em because we have the talent there not due to any great coaching effort. The style of coaching is old & ultra defensive & doesn't work on any side better than bottom 8 & only works on them because of the raw tallent in our side.

I agree with everything you say!

[liz]

I A thrashing like that one needs an analysis & I am of the opinion there will be no Premierships under Horse & his Coaching team & the only way we can go under them is down.

Excellent. We're back to the "let's judge Longmire and make definitive predictions about where he can take the club after just 12 weeks into his senior career and with a squad of mostly solid players and few undisputed top tier players".

[Auntie.Gerald]

I agree with Chuckie in the first post on this subject. I hated the way we were playing & we had plenty of ball in our half in the first half it just kept coming back. That bleeding defensive zone from full forward to the centre is hopeless & definitely not working. I have been saying that for weeks & the coach persists with it. We were outplayed, outcoached & outgunned. I don't think the RAT is a particularly great coach & I doubt he'll be the one to take the Blues all the way but he has a very good Coaching Panel & they did their homework on us. Pity our Coaching Panel either didn't on them or were just hopeless. A thrashing like that one needs an analysis & I am of the opinion there will be no Premierships under Horse & his Coaching team & the only way we can go under them is down. If we hadn't won all those closies we would be sitting very close to bottom. We did win 'em because we have the talent there not due to any great coaching effort. The style of coaching is old & ultra defensive & doesn't work on any side better than bottom 8 & only works on them because of the raw tallent in our side.

I dont agree.........any time we kicked to a contest we looked ordinary and our midfield or HFF were not first to ball.

When I watched Carlton crash a contest their midfield or HFF were first to ball

Even when a speedy off the mark player like McGlynn gave chase he could not keep up with the speed of Carlton small players

For that is a genuine lack of speed and players like Mal who were promoted to midfield etc because they do have a little more speed added nothing.......

[mcs]

I still think we have 2 major problem areas (reflective of what has previously been said in this thread) and they don't include leg speed. I know Geelong does have a couple of genuine speedsters, but their great team of the last few years will be remembered for sensational team work, clean skills under immense pressure and just high quality football all around. They won't be remembered for the bursting runs of their quick men. Leg speed is good to have, but a good team will always find a way to make do with what they have.

Our two areas where there are clear issues that are the two agreas that are holding us back imo are our structure (especially in the forward line) and our skills.

I'll start with the easy one. In 05/06 but generally until the last couple of years, our skills have been very very good. Watching the 2011 Swans against the Premiership team of 2005 is like chalk and cheese. This year's team can't hit targets, constantly handballs either too high or to the feet of teammates (Often who are under extreme presure), our kicking is generally woeful and we drop far too many easy marks. I firmly believe that if we can get our skills back to anywhere near where they were in the 05/06 period, we will challenge soon for another flag. If we can't, then no matter how talented the team may be, or how good some of our individuals may be, we can't win a flag.

On the issue of structure, I think there are issues across the park. I do think generally, considering the pressure we often are under, our defense does very well. However, the dash that we once enjoyed off the Half back line is simply not there anymore. No longer do we seemingly have the ability to push forward as a unit and go hard down the centre of the park. I know footy has changed significantly, but you only have to look at how good Collingwood is at punishing teams on the break from their own end of the park to show that it is still an integral part of the game.

The midfield generally can hold its own defensively in close confines, but I worry that we not only lack midfielders that can genuinely rip a game open, but also enough cohesion that the midfield can work well together as a unit. Too often when we do not have the ball, our midfield becomes redudant and has very little ability to stop the attack from the other team. I also worry that our midfield doesn't work hard enough for each other or just generally- too often this year I have shouted in frustration when opposition teams have found it far too easy to find easy passes through our midfield, with our midfielder 5 metres behind or nowhere to be seen. Speed may be one issue there, but clever midfielders make up for it by working hard and as a team.

The problems with our forward line have been well discussed and documented on this site. I actually don't think we are that far away with the forward line, but until the aforementioned problems in midfield and defence are sorted (especially to moving the ball quickly) its going to be tough up forward. We have a quality key position player in development in Reid though, and if we look to build our forward line around him I think we will be on the right track.


Generally though, and it sort of fits under structure, we have no idea about what our 'best' team is and there is far too much switching and swapping of players and their positions. A good team is also a stable team, where apart from enforced changes, generally its the same guys playing in the same positions, week in week out. We spend far too much time experimenting with players (This season LRT is a perfect example, Everitt another) to try and fit all the pieces into the puzzle, instead of sticking in the pieces that fit and working on finding the right pieces for the other few areas.

I don't think we are a million miles off to be honest. Another couple of finals games this season would be a good result, and then if the focus is correct in the Summer on vastly improving our skills and decision making then we will only improve!

[liz]

I don't think we are a million miles off to be honest. Another couple of finals games this season would be a good result, and then if the focus is correct in the Summer on vastly improving our skills and decision making then we will only improve!

Things can click for a team very quickly - and they can disappear quickly too. You just have to look to West Coast and the Bulldogs in 2011 to see this. Last season the Eagles couldn't hit the side of a barn by foot, and barely by hand either. This year they have their best players back in form, an improved forward line, a structure that has finally clicked and their confidence is up. As a result they look like a vastly different team. It is harder to pinpoint what has happened to the Dogs - though the loss of their bookends (through either form or fitness) is a factor. But they look like a shadow of the side that could beat up any team other than the top couple of sides.

[Auntie.Gerald]

West Coast are a good example of players ready to rise up..........imagine if we had Bradshaw this year firing and White killing it !

That is West Coast this year !

[caj23]

Excellent. We're back to the "let's judge Longmire and make definitive predictions about where he can take the club after just 12 weeks into his senior career and with a squad of mostly solid players and few undisputed top tier players".

I think people are questioning him Liz because we have stagnated this year when there should be improvement from the development of our younger players.

There doesn't appear to be any clear change to the game plan from Roos, and we know from the last couple of seasons that it wasn't working, our forward line is a rabble, we are getting beaten in the midfield, his use of Goodes has been baffling, and there is no plan b when things aren't going our way.

I don't think I can name one player who has improved from last year.

Chris Scott is 12 weeks into his coaching career at Geelong albeit with the best list a 1st year coach is ever going to get, but he has made significant changes to the game plan which has improved the team even though they have lost their best player in Ablett.

Hird has also made significant changes at the Bombers, and whilst they probably won't make the 8, their is significant improvement from Knights.

The only positives that I can find from our season to date are our defence (which was already strong) and the introduction of a number of younger players.

You're a highly regarded an educated poster on this forum, I'd be interested to hear your views on Longmire and in particular the following:

- Our game plan, what is it? has it changed from last year?
- What are the positives for Longmire so far
- What are the negatives
- Which players have improved
- How do you rate his match day tactics

I think its fair enough that we evaluate Longmire's performance at the half way mark of the season. Hopefully he can turn it around but IMO he hasn't performed well

[liz]

There is a huge difference between evaluating 12 weeks of performance and reaching a conclusion after 12 weeks that there will never be premierships under Longmire and the only way is down. It is the latter I find particularly bewildering.

And even the former has to be undertaken with caution given that there is a huge amount of information we are not privy to.

[ugg]

our forward line is a rabble

No different to last year after Bradshaw was out injured - it's easy to forget what a tough period we went through around this time last year as it's been glossed over by a very strong finish to the year. Horse is trying to address the forward line problems by playing Reid consistently but the full results of that move won't be seen until at least 2013.

we are getting beaten in the midfield

To the top teams yes, but that is to be 'expected' to some extent. I would advocate that our midfield is the reason we've managed to get over the line in the close matches.

his use of Goodes has been baffling

Goodes is a ver enigmatic player, when things are going well he looks a million dollars, when they aren't he's as bad as they come. Trying to plug two holes (a line-breaking midfielder and a tall marking forward) with the one peg isn't easy - just ask Roosy!

, and there is no plan b when things aren't going our way.

If you're talking about match day moves, see your questions below. If you're talking about structures and game style I think it's very hard to change the way you play between games, let alone within a game - and this applies to all teams not just Sydney, just ask Geelong players from 2010. One of the strengths of the Swans is that they're well-drilled, each player knows their roles as it's been ingrained into them over and over again

I don't think I can name one player who has improved from last year.

Craig Bird
Sam Reid
Jude Bolton in near-AA-form
ROK after his injured-hit 2010
Mattner's best season in the last 2-3 years
Richards has been brilliant, in some sense it's a continuation from the tail end of last year.

- Our game plan, what is it? has it changed from last year?

It's much more direct and we play on more often than under Roos.
Our forward press is much more effective (not even sure we had one last year) and we've turned one of our weakenesses (forward 50 tackles) into a strength.

- What are the positives for Longmire so far

7.5 wins and 6th on the ladder.
Blooding the younger players, in particular Reid and Johnson who I'm not sure would have played as many games under Roos.
Winning the close games, which contrary to popular belief ("the Swans are a team that never give up") we've had a really bad record in the past 3 years.

- What are the negatives

Outclassed by the top teams, same issue that Roos had
Skills under pressure just as bad, if not worse than last year.

- Which players have improved

See above

- How do you rate his match day tactics

Hard to fully judge this one given we aren't aware of the full gamut of his moves during the game but for the obvious ones I'd say they've been somewhat hit (LRT to the goalsquare to drag Merrett out of the play; turning Bird into an effective tagger; playing Everitt forward late in the WC match) and miss (ROK on Judd after KJ went off injured;some of his sub selections, particularly taller players like Seaby and Everitt)


In any case, I do find myself agreeing with liz in that you cannot possibly pass judgment so soon. This time last year (after 12 games) we were 7th with 7 wins and 5 losses so I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that we've stagnated.

[Mr Magoo]

If you look at it from a purely generalistic viewpoint , we and Horse are actually travelling quite well for a team that has no structure, no plan b , no improvement from anyone and hopeless match day tactics. We have only been beaten by the geelong , carlton and hawthorn, we have won close games against teams that everyone is so impressed by ( West coast at home , something we didnt even do much in our good years, Essendon when they were totally entranced by the God Hird and everyone was predicting top four , Northe Melbourne at the start of a run that everyone is now predicting will see them in the eight) and we have done it for some weeks without our B&F from last year, a woeful goal accuracy, our number one ruckman injured and a 19 year old centre half forward in his first season in the senior ranks.