Now for ...

[Matt80]

Your very harsh on Jesse MCS. If Sam Reid had of achieved those finals numbers playing high half forward, you would have been delighted.

It's time for people to realise just how good Jesse is! The reason he gets lots of the ball is that his team mates trust him to use it well!

Jesse has showed himself to be able to play up the ground and may be able to develop into a punishing, high marking inside midfielder in the ROK tradition!

[mcs]

Your very harsh on Jesse MCS. If Sam Reid had of achieved those finals numbers playing high half forward, you would have been delighted.

It's time for people to realise just how good Jesse is! The reason he gets lots of the ball is that his team mates trust him to use it well!

Jesse has showed himself to be able to play up the ground and may be able to develop into a punishing, high marking inside midfielder in the ROK tradition!

Id say exactly the same thing about reid matt if he got those numbers. I am the first to acknowledge he is vastly improved, but possessions aren't everything, especially when you are in the team to kick goals.

Does anywhere give stats about score involvements/assists. Would be interesting to see whether jesse is giving a good contribution this way (I have no idea)

[Matt80]

Just watching the replay of the game where Jesse achieved those two holding the ball sequences in a minute after turning the ball over!

Incredible sequence of athleticism for such a big key forward! Tom Hawkins is not that mobile.

I really feel Jesse will have the ultimate break out year next and I hope it's with Red and White.

[gazza]

i agree emphatically about reid at chb next yr.grundy is not the answer.we have a lot of recruits for next year,goodes,tippett,mitchell,shaw,johnson,lrt and fitter rohan and jetta.some of the boys who tried so hard this yr will be disappointed

[stellation]

Id say exactly the same thing about reid matt if he got those numbers. I am the first to acknowledge he is vastly improved, but possessions aren't everything, especially when you are in the team to kick goals.

Does anywhere give stats about score involvements/assists. Would be interesting to see whether jesse is giving a good contribution this way (I have no idea)

I can't find score involvements quickly but could find goal assists for the season- he averaged 0.8 (for perspective Sam's best return for a season has been an average of 0.4). Our top 5 for averages looked like this;

Goal Assists
1 Adam Goodes 1.08
1 Kieren Jack 1.08
3 Ben McGlynn 0.95
4 Jesse White 0.8
5 Luke Parker 0.72

Goals
1 Kurt Tippett 2.92
2 Adam Goodes 1.67
3 Ben McGlynn 1.43
4 Jesse White 1.33
5 Jude Bolton 1.21

I'd say he averages a fair few score involvements overall.

[annew]

Jude tweeted last night that he is managing Jesse, Mal and a couple of others

[stellation]

He might have got plenty of the ball, but only 1 goal from a guy playing at CHF is simply not good enough. He is in the team to kick goals, not get lots of possessions.

I'm still not convinced by Jesse. No doubt the last 6 months have been the best of his career, but is he really that good? I fear that many people are getting a little bit over-excited as he has shown some of the ability he has finally at the top level. If we got a good offer for him (2nd rounder sounds fair to me), then if it was me deciding, I'd probably take it. But then, of course there is the issue of Mumford and where he goes.

What I think we need to do is find a couple of genuine smaller forward types. Parker has shown that size isn't everything up forward, and I've been disappointed by McGlynn this year to be honest. A good quality small forward should be a prerogative in the recruitment period if you ask me.

I'd almost saying being in the team to kick goals is a bit of a yes and no thing with the role he appeared to have been asked to play- yes, obviously as a forward he's in the team to kick goals (and really should have kicked a couple of more through the finals) and the coaching staff would have loved him to kick a bah, but he is playing as a very high CHF that I'd suggest spent more time leading up to the wings than he did leading to the f50 arc over the 3 games.

[mcs]

Just watching the replay of the game where Jesse achieved those two holding the ball sequences in a minute after turning the ball over!

Incredible sequence of athleticism for such a big key forward! Tom Hawkins is not that mobile.

I really feel Jesse will have the ultimate break out year next and I hope it's with Red and White.

I will definitely give him credit for that piece of play - but we need him kicking goals as well if he is going to play chf. But I certainly wouldnt be unhappy if we kept him, but not at the cost of mummy.

[Matt80]

Well done stellation with those numbers! Jesse White is also good with Goal Assists. Jesse White would also lead the side with goals outside 50!

Those numbers also show how important Goodes is! He will enter 2014 with a better preseason than 2013 and should improve those numbers in 2014!

[Melbournehammer]

Honestly people are looking at Jesse using last years glasses. Go and watch the three finals again and just have a look at how critical he was to our scoring. He was our only avenue about half the time.

A second round pick is gross unders because you don't know what you will get there.

But whatever the outcome I am pleased with his recent season as a swan - he has been one of the only bright spots in the second half of the season

[Reggi]

I think our match committee wil discuss Jesse less than here. Unless he asks incredible money or someone offers something ludicrous, no way would you release him.

Horse made a great decision to release fringe players last year. Our cap should be in reasonable shape, so don't expect we need to give something good away.

With so many rookies playing senior footy, I expect us to release more fringe players who are unlikely to get regular games next year.

I think it is that discussion that will dominate everything in match committee in the next couple of weeks

[Ludwig]

If goalkicking was the only measurement for how we judge a KPFs, then Reid would have been delisted by now. Jesse's goal kicking is far better than Reid's. Generally speaking, Jesse's goalkicking has been very good this year. True, he should have kicked at least one of his 2 shots last night, but there were many easy misses from both sides, including set shot sharpshooter Chris Mayne, who missed both of his shots.

Why do some on here set the bar so much higher for Jesse that they do for others? Is it the McHack syndrome (a malady that fails to recognise that a player with weaknesses can improve and become an elite player)?

I think we'd be very lucky to get a player of better value from a 2nd round pick than we would from the current version of Jesse White. The current draft of not that great after the first round and we shouldn't be giving away good players for picks over #25.

There are many ways to approach the off season. I think the 2014 will be the more important one for making player movement decisions. We will probably have a few more retirements and delistings. I would like to see how the further development goes with a number of our players:

1. Three key defenders in Xav Richards, Brown, and Lockyer finished the season in good form. Maybe we are stronger in this area than we think. Next year's draft is rated better for KPPs than this one. We can buy another year with the current list.

2. Both Towers and Membrey show lots of promise for mid sized forwards. Both can take a good mark and kick a long goal.

3. Armstrong seems to have improved during his second half stint in the reserves. I wouldn't write him off. Matt Dick would have a lot to offer if he can improve his decision making and consistency in kicking. He's our youngest player and should have more development in him.

4. We have plenty of good midfielders lining up for spots in the seniors. Lloyd, Robinson and Perris are yet to play in an already deep and young senior midfield. I think Harry Marsh may be groomed for a Ryan Crowley type role. He has the size, speed and kicking to potentially play that guy that takes the opposition's best midfielder, and can cause damage going the other way with ball in hand.

I can see many scenarios regarding the draft and trading this year. We can simply fill the 3 retirements with Lloyd Perris plus 2 live picks, or we can trade a player or 2 to improve our position in the draft.

The situation with Mummy and White is the key. If we can afford both, we just may keep them and go into 2014 with a very deep squad. But we have to be prepared to rotate a lot, which I am not at all against. We can also trade both and try to land a couple of good young players for the future as both could fetch high draft pics, and we can probably cover for both of them with our current list. My feeling is that one will go, and it may depend on where the offers come from. There are a few factors to consider:

1. Are we committed to Reid as a forward, or could we see him playing in defence? If we want him to be our CHF in a combination with Tippett, then we should trade White. If we are open to Reid going back into defence, then we should re-sign Jesse.

2. How do we evaluate the 3 big man scenario? Can we play Mummy, Pyke and Tippett in the same team? At first I though it was possible, but am coming around to the opinion that it's too slow and cumbersome. If we sign Mummy, then we commit to playing all three, and probably relegate Naismith and Patrick Mitchell to the reserves for the next 3 years, and Jesse White to the trade table. It's a big call.

3. Jed Lamb is also unsigned. He looks to have a bright future, but can he find a spot in our side? His time for senior foot is now, but he seems to be outside the best 22 at the moment. It was interesting that Horse chose to go with the lesser experienced Biggs and Cunningham over Lamb. Could this be a sign? (And perhaps a sign for Tony A as well?) There will are also be a few challenging for spots from below (BJ, Jake Lloyd and perhaps Robinson and Perris as well).

As for our older senior players:

1. I wouldn't mind seeing ROK return to the forward line, taking Jude's place and easing the tougher role as an inside mid. It could extend his career by an extra hear. Still has a great tank and can cause some damage. Parker, Mitchell and Bird should all get more time on the ball.

2. Goodes will probably go on, but the injuries will be taking a toll by now. Would make a very handy sub in his final years. Could be very damaging coming off the bench late in games.

3. Hopefully Rhyce Shaw can rebound from his second ACL reco. But is likely to be a depth player next year, and probably his last. Still showed in his final couple of games that he has a lot to offer. Should end up as a coach.

4. Not sure what will be with LRT. He's only 30, so if he recovers completely from his injury, I can't see why he couldn't make an important contribution for another 3 years. Prefer LRT in defence allowing Dre to go forward. Both could end up as depth players depending on other decisions.

5. I cannot make up my mind on Grundy. He does a lot of good things and is a solid defender. Finished the season well, but had some bad games along the way. I prefer LRT in his spot. He's taller, quicker and a better kick. A lot may depend on the White/Reid situation. Reg still has 2 more years on his contract, but would trade him to GWS for one of their young KPPS like Jaksch or Josh Bruce. Eventually the tall defenders will be Johnson and a couple of ones not in the senior side at the moment (although one could be Reid). If Reid goes back, it helps solve this tall defender situation longer term.

6. Poor disposal may be the undoing of Benny McGlynn. I really like Benny. He brings so much with his speed and pressure, but as a link up man kills off too may offensive forays with clangers.

Overall, there's plenty to like about the Swans going forward. But the reality is that we were shown up badly by Freo and the other top 4 teams throughout the year, with 5 losses and a draw. It's hard to be sentimental in the face of the ruthlessness that Fremantle showed in the PF. Ross Lyon sets a tough standard for the rest of the league to match. Freo had lots of injuries during the year, but never made excuses and kept winning games. That attitude will force the Swans and other teams to make some hard decisions. Horse always says that we have to keep improving. That's a good start.

[Matt80]

What superb analysis Ludwig! Some other opinions!

Garry Rohan should be developed as a tall quick inside midfielder in the style of Pat Dangerfield or Nat Fyfe. His tackling and defensive work is great and he would be able to break from congestion into space! He should replace ROK in tight!

Adam Goodes will have a better season in 2014 due to a good Preseason! He should play in a ultra tall forward line of Tippett, Reid and White! Tippett would play deep with Reid, Goodes and White playing high up the Ground!

No room for Mumford. Pyke will do the ruck work with support from Tippett and White.

Cunningham and B. Jack will be developed into small forward midfield types replacing Mglynn!

Johnson and LRT should be back to bolster the defence!

[RogueSwan]

... Freo had lots of injuries during the year, but never made excuses and kept winning games. ...

Umm, so did the Swans. It was us fans that lent on the injuries excuse.

I think we should keep Mummy, if he can reproduce his Rnd23 form for most of the year, that would be one of the premiership puzzle pieces in place.
I also think we should keep White, but then again I am the sentimental type and hate the thought of any of our boys leaving.

[mcs]

If anything, I really do think the last few weeks have shown that a super tall forward line does not work against the best teams. It looked impotent against the Hawks, and really last night our whole forward setup just didn't work until the game was over.

I just can't see how possibly a forward line of Goodes, Tippett, Reid and White will work - it'll just be a lot more of what we saw too much of this year (i.e. 2 or 3 jumping at the same long bombs). Either Reid goes back (that is not the best option in my opinion - I think it will just click at some stage with Reid - like it has with Hawkins (before the injury)), or else you can't play 4 talls up forward. The structure to me must be built around Tippett at FF and Reid or White at CHF. Then you go from there. 2 big permanent talls, plus a resting ruckman, and then mids/small midfielders. Tall forward lines will beat limited teams, but I need a lot more convincing they will beat the best teams in the comp, especially when we really do lack good crumbing players.

I also question whether White's best played as a ruckman - surely his athleticism around the ground is his best aspect, and at this stage you don't want rucking to be taking away from this.


As for Rohan, I have nothing against him being used in the midfield, but as we saw in his cameo last night (and before his injury last year) he is a seriously good leading forward, and can kick goals from almost anywhere. Rohan will rip it apart next year with a full pre-season, with full fitness under his belt - that I have no doubt.

I repeat what I said earlier - we need a good crumbing small forward. Putting midfielders up there is all good and fine, but there is nothing against having a genuine small forward. I'm not convinced McGlynn is the answer, and would hope we look in the draft for someone that may be the answer in the future.