2015 academy discussion thread (with some FS thrown in for good measure)

[Mug Punter]

So kids from Vic, SA or WA shouldnt have to leave their home states either?

This is a professional sport and young players have to be willing to play anywhere when they enter the system via the draft.

The lists of the SA and WA clubs are around the 80-90% local talent level anyway so in reality they are in a position of supply exceeding demand.

And they are in established football markets.

So the situation of the NSW and ACT kids in a developmental context in the talent war they are fighting is totally different to SA and WA

And re your last comment, we all know the Draft is an unreasonable restraint of trade that wouldn't stand up if challenged in a court of law. it survives due to a nudge nudge wink wink arrangement designed to keep the Melbourne clubs in business.

[Melbournehammer]

Liz you are right that the numbers from NSW and Qld are poor. But that is because we base our proportion on the population of the state. Does someone have the proportion of auskick kids from NSW and Qld vis a vis the other states ? from 2000-2010 maybe ? Thats the true comparison - are the numbers drafted small as a proportion of the pool or not. But for some reason we always seem to conflate this argument with the need for local heroes. I just reckon this is garbage.

Argument 1 is that we need to have more players come from NSW and Qld. Well sure lets grow the talent base and if the swans have to do that by paying lots of money then either the afl funds it or we get a benefit.

but to then conflate that with the academy requiring a pathway for local kids to play locally is nonsensical. Carey, Kelly came from a NSW country town. Should they have played for the wagga tigers in the AFL ?

Should Josh Dunkley play for the sale magpies ? Or is he expected to move to a big club somewhere ?

Carey, Kelly, Dunstall, Isaac Smith, Nick Riewoldt, Troy Luff for gawds sake all were prepared to move to the big smoke away from friends and family. Newcastle isnt Sydney. Nelson Bay isnt Sydney.

Sure by all means the pathway should be made better - and playing against better kids will improve their competitive basis. But this endless bleating about how unfair it is that the kids from sydney have to move interstate if they get drafted there is just nonsensical.

I think we need to stop conflating these two arguments. If the academies are there to get more kids into afl and increase the talent pool then lets do that and if the swans pay for that and that time we can just concentrate on arguing about the appropriate discount rate - at the moment the discount can be 17 draft choices (but will usually be something less than that) and it will shortly be a 20% discount to a player's true market rate.

But in either case the swans benefit by paying less than market price for a player. We have been rewarded for funding the academies and developing NSW players. The reward may be less than we think is justified and we can always go back to the afl later if the evidence suggests that this does not represent true value.


But do we really breed a pack of mummys boys in sydney which means that they cant leave home ? Does Callum Mills have to play in Sydney because thats where the north shore is ? What makes this so special that the next kid we draft from Melbourne wouldnt also justifiably say but all my mates are here ?

And do you really think it changes the supporters mindset about the local boy ? Do you think the kid with the number 37 on his back at the swans cares that goodes is from horsham ? do you think it makes people particularly proud that keiran jack is from sydney and make him more loved than luke parker ? Man I live in the heart of collingwood territory and my kids play for fitzroy juniors - the game has moved on from having the local hero and walking up to brunswick street oval (or lakeside or princes park).

[Mug Punter]

Liz you are right that the numbers from NSW and Qld are poor. But that is because we base our proportion on the population of the state. Does someone have the proportion of auskick kids from NSW and Qld vis a vis the other states ? from 2000-2010 maybe ? Thats the true comparison - are the numbers drafted small as a proportion of the pool or not. But for some reason we always seem to conflate this argument with the need for local heroes. I just reckon this is garbage.

Argument 1 is that we need to have more players come from NSW and Qld. Well sure lets grow the talent base and if the swans have to do that by paying lots of money then either the afl funds it or we get a benefit.

but to then conflate that with the academy requiring a pathway for local kids to play locally is nonsensical. Carey, Kelly came from a NSW country town. Should they have played for the wagga tigers in the AFL ?

Should Josh Dunkley play for the sale magpies ? Or is he expected to move to a big club somewhere ?

Carey, Kelly, Dunstall, Isaac Smith, Nick Riewoldt, Troy Luff for gawds sake all were prepared to move to the big smoke away from friends and family. Newcastle isnt Sydney. Nelson Bay isnt Sydney.

Sure by all means the pathway should be made better - and playing against better kids will improve their competitive basis. But this endless bleating about how unfair it is that the kids from sydney have to move interstate if they get drafted there is just nonsensical.

I think we need to stop conflating these two arguments. If the academies are there to get more kids into afl and increase the talent pool then lets do that and if the swans pay for that and that time we can just concentrate on arguing about the appropriate discount rate - at the moment the discount can be 17 draft choices (but will usually be something less than that) and it will shortly be a 20% discount to a player's true market rate.

But in either case the swans benefit by paying less than market price for a player. We have been rewarded for funding the academies and developing NSW players. The reward may be less than we think is justified and we can always go back to the afl later if the evidence suggests that this does not represent true value.


But do we really breed a pack of mummys boys in sydney which means that they cant leave home ? Does Callum Mills have to play in Sydney because thats where the north shore is ? What makes this so special that the next kid we draft from Melbourne wouldnt also justifiably say but all my mates are here ?

And do you really think it changes the supporters mindset about the local boy ? Do you think the kid with the number 37 on his back at the swans cares that goodes is from horsham ? do you think it makes people particularly proud that keiran jack is from sydney and make him more loved than luke parker ? Man I live in the heart of collingwood territory and my kids play for fitzroy juniors - the game has moved on from having the local hero and walking up to brunswick street oval (or lakeside or princes park).

You really are deluded aren't you, what a king size tanty rant, not to mention ignorant

OK you live in Collingwood and think you know everything about football...

I have lived in Sydney and played and been an administrator my entire life. So, bring it in tight and listen...

If you are a talented spoirtsman in Sydney then you have many options. You might have possibly heard of rugby union or even a competition called the NRL. There's a game the rest of the world play called football too. AFL is still a minority sport in Sydney and if want to ensure player development and engagement then you need a pathway to a local club. It's commonsense you peanut. Parents will be much more likely to enrol their kids in an AFL program if they have the chance of playing locally.

Feel free to live in your little Melbourne centric world and I'll promptly block you so I never have to hear your offensive dribble again

[Ludwig]

I frankly don't care if they walk away from the equalisation tax. It's mainly the weak Melbourne clubs that would be the beneficiaries of the tax anyway. Let those greedy big Melbourne clubs stay in the headlights for a while, sucking the blood out of the poorer clubs in their town.

I also don't see the big deal about trading future draft picks, but object to use of the so-called academy benefits as the reason for a change in this area.

We call all see, in retrospect, how this devious plan was conjured up last year to create the very situation we find today. They had an onerous bidding system that was mathematically devised to ensure that the only way the Swans could get Mills would be to go beyond a single draft in payment. And then they used the very system they created to weaken the academies to bring up yet further perceived advantages that had to be compensated for.

Well, let's revert to last year's system where there was no need to use future draft picks to secure academy players. On balance, given the loss of players by northern clubs to the go home factor, the funding of the academies and the broader national development of the game, surely a system whereby an academy club would give up its next 2 allocated draft picks should have been sufficient to cover the situation of a strong club gaining access to a player they developed over a period of years.

There should be a Northern Alliance



(not that Northern Alliance, don't be an idiot, Ludwig)

yes, a Northern Alliance to stand up against this Melbourne mafia and make some threats of their own. The northern clubs hold the key to the future of the game, television rights and big big money. A lot more than just the paltry equalisation tax that Collingwood and Hawthorn seem to have worked out how to avoid paying anyway.


There has been much media discussion about how good Jeremy McGovern has been and how WCE find these players, add them to their rookie list and they become stars from seemingly out of the blue. It came up that the Eagles spend millions on recruiting, uncovering WA talent that would be too costly for out of state clubs to match. The way I see it, the northern clubs are doing a similar thing by funding the academies. But this is all done in the public eye, not under the radar. The WA clubs are using the advantage of being both rich and remote to find talent that is otherwise difficult for the other clubs to access. Why isn't this not an equalisation issue? Isn't this affecting the purity of the draft by giving an unfair advantage to WA clubs?

[Melbournehammer]

Yeah I'm pig ignorant.

I grew up on the north shore. I played rep cricket soccer and rugby.

I played against Michael slater when he was in Sydney as an under 16 when I was under 16. And yes he came fro. Wagga to play in the green shield.

I know a fair bit about sport in Sydney. What I don't understand is the belief that Sydney kids exclusively need a pathway to their local club ?

I get the dynamics about improving the Sydney competition. The Sydney comp may have changed a bit but is broadly similar to the local clubs in Melbourne whose pathway is to one of the tac sides. So he numbers is the thing at the heart of the debate. And we should do what we can to grow the game.

I still don't see why that means kids need to stay in Sydney. They move at 18 for uni, for work. If they are star cricketers they go the ais academy in Adelaide, or did when I was that adage. If they are elite athletes across a range of sports they go to the aid in Canberra.

Go for your life with the abuse.

Go for your life blocking. Feel powerful does it ?

[Ampersand]

Why not take it from the horse's mouth, Melbournehammer?? Isaac Heeney has explicitly stated that he wouldn't be playing AFL today if he'd not been picked up by the Swans Academy. Who knows how many of similar talent to Heeney have slipped through the cracks due to the low profile and promotion of the sport in this city and state.

It's not about improving the Sydney comp, it's about connecting with young kids at the grassroots when they are deciding which sport to play. Ten years ago AFL wasn't even on the radar when kids were thinking about taking up a sport. Slowly but surely the Academy is changing that and we're seeing the very early fruits of that success. That work needs to continue but these proposals are intended to rip out the sapling by the root.

[Melbournehammer]

Ampersand I get all that. That's why I am a massive fan of the academies. They provide elite level coaching for elite level sportspeople. They will grow the game and hopefully cement it in Sydney and Brisbane.

And although you disagree there does appear to be an argument appears that many will go back to the Sydney afl and that will be a better comp as well providing better competition etc, as well as increasing the numbers playing in Sydney. So I get the importance of the academy as both a developmental and structural part of the afl in Sydney.

What I don't get is whether Isaac heeney said that he would never have agreed to play footy unless he became a swan - maybe he did ? But I think it more likely he would say that without the academy he could never have played afl footy. And I am certain that he is particularly happy to have become a swan because he went through the academy and supports the swans. But if Melbourne had drafted him would he have refused to go ? I don't know - maybe he would have ??

i get the swans argument that we have invested plenty in this system and we deserve to be rewarded for that.

So I understand the debate - but I guess the bit I still don't quite get is what I said before - would Isaac heeney or abe Davis have refused to play if they were drafted by another club other than Sydney ?

And that being the case the only real issue it seems to me is what is a "fair" compensation to the swans for investing in the Sydney academy not that the swans must have exclusive access to Sydney academy players.

Anyway I've had my go and I can see that it is an opinion which is not shared so carry on

[Dan]

And that being the case the only real issue it seems to me is what is a "fair" compensation to the swans for investing in the Sydney academy not that the swans must have exclusive access to Sydney academy players.

I back your opinion. The academies shouldn't be about giving us, the giants, lions or suns, the best players or the players we pick and choose. It is about developing juniors into quality AFL players. We get the advantage of being able to bid for these players, but I don't think that it should compromise the draft. If we are a top 4 team it is pretty unfair on the competition that we can grab a player of top 1-4 caliber for the 18th pick.

We still have an advantage, just less of an advantage at the moment because of our on field success. As I previously said in another post, if we were a bottom 4 team and this bidding process was brought in I doubt there would be too much discussion.

[Ludwig]

If you look at the Brisbane Lions in the early 2000s. They were perhaps the best team ever. Great players retired, they had the extra salary cap taken away and they made a few trade and draft mistakes and slide all the down the ladder.

We could be looking 5 years down the road with the Swans being a bottom 4 side and the great Melbourne pundits will look back and say: "Shame about Mills doing his ACL and Dunkley was too slow and never learned how to kick, so they eventually delisted him; they used all their draft picks for 2 years to draft them, so they had a big gap in young talent coming through the system, they were banned from trading in players, they slashed the COLA, even though prices in Sydney continued to skyrocket, so they couldn't attract players to the club, so it's no surprise they fell from a top 4 side to join the other northern clubs at the bottom of the table. Well nobody goes to those games in Sydney and Brisbane anyway, so they deserve to be at the bottom. We said it would never work up north. They prefer Rugby and Soccer. Always have, always will. I don't see why we have to bail them out now; it's their fault they're broke. They wasted all that money on the academies, which could have been used to improve their recruiting staff. Well, let's get back to the main story of the week: Who's going to take out the Grand Final, the Hawks or the Pies?"

Yep! Everything back to normal. Just the way it was meant to be.

[bloodspirit]

You really are deluded aren't you, what a king size tanty rant, not to mention ignorant

OK you live in Collingwood and think you know everything about football...

I have lived in Sydney and played and been an administrator my entire life. So, bring it in tight and listen...

If you are a talented spoirtsman in Sydney then you have many options. You might have possibly heard of rugby union or even a competition called the NRL. There's a game the rest of the world play called football too. AFL is still a minority sport in Sydney and if want to ensure player development and engagement then you need a pathway to a local club. It's commonsense you peanut. Parents will be much more likely to enrol their kids in an AFL program if they have the chance of playing locally.

Feel free to live in your little Melbourne centric world and I'll promptly block you so I never have to hear your offensive dribble again

What happened to playing the ball, not the man? Just block him next time and spare the rest of us having to scroll past your own rant. In my case I actually read through it all because I am usually interested in what you have to say. A waste of my time on this occasion.

[S.S. Bleeder]

Swans do get a benefit. They get a discount on the pick.

Of course we do and we bloody well should. The 20% discount compensates us for the millions spent each year on the academy. What team in their right mind would do this for no advantage?

[S.S. Bleeder]

The "future draft" picks is a "wedge" Eddie cleverly put in the academies rules, to enable him and his robot (Newbolt) to attack on a new front. The AFL's are fools for letting this, as I explained earlier in this thread.

Should the Swans (and other northern teams) get preferential treatment on local players? Is this unfair ? On its own, it is unfair.
But they need it to counterbalance the unfairness they already have to bare with regards to having so few local players on their list. They are disadvantaged as more players have to move interstate, and get homesick. Many a deal has fallen through because a player didnt want to move state. The academies are a solution to that problem. An unfairness to balance another unfairness. A long term solution.

If the AFL was smart, which unfortuntely they are not, they would word the academy pick discounts to be available to any team with less than 50% (or some number) of locally born players (by state).
A victorian team can only recruit outside its state, go below 50%, then set up an academy, and take its benefits, if they want.. But who would? The disadvantages and cost outweigh benefits.

The failure of the AFL to do this, to communicate the full extent of the rulings, now and in the past, always causes this victorian white-anting of anything worthwhile outside victoria.

Like it. The only problem would be that some clubs may fluctuate between above and below the 50% and is wouldn't be feasible to start and stop academies (unless you meant they would still operate them but without any advantage?).

[Doctor]

You really are deluded aren't you, what a king size tanty rant, not to mention ignorant

OK you live in Collingwood and think you know everything about football...

I have lived in Sydney and played and been an administrator my entire life. So, bring it in tight and listen...

If you are a talented spoirtsman in Sydney then you have many options. You might have possibly heard of rugby union or even a competition called the NRL. There's a game the rest of the world play called football too. AFL is still a minority sport in Sydney and if want to ensure player development and engagement then you need a pathway to a local club. It's commonsense you peanut. Parents will be much more likely to enrol their kids in an AFL program if they have the chance of playing locally.

Feel free to live in your little Melbourne centric world and I'll promptly block you so I never have to hear your offensive dribble again

...drivel.

[Dan]

Parents will be much more likely to enrol their kids in an AFL program if they have the chance of playing locally.

Parents will enrol kids in a program that will keep the fit, healthy and happy. I doubt there are too many parents that sign their kids up to a sport just so they become professional or semi-professional athletes.

[jono2707]

Any kid who dreams of playing professional sport these days also has to be aware that it could take them far and wide - a young league player could end up in Auckland, Townsville, Melbourne or the north of England. Rugby players could end up in Perth, Melbourne, Japan, France or numerous other places. Soccer players could end up anywhere in the world (and often at a very young age), as could basketballers, cricketers etc etc. Whilst staying close to home is a nice idea, for the majority in most pro sports it's rarely an option.

Whilst I understand that the main goal of the Academies is to foster an AFL culture in non-AFL states, and boost the level of competition for these kids, the likes of Heeney, Mills and any other potential star coming out the other end should be prepared to go anywhere to have a crack at making it in the AFL. The Academy should be preparing its elite players for the possibility that they will end up somewhere other than Sydney.

Of course I want these stars at the Swans, especially as we fund the Academy. But the best future outcome would be a number of Academy graduates being drafted into the AFL, some to the Swans and some to other teams (with some sort of compensation for this of course).