Match Day Thread Rnd 8 V Hawthorn

[CureTheSane]

re: Hawks fans not being very well liked.

It would be interesting to see the demographics of fans of all clubs. Memberships should give a fair indication.
I would suggest that a high percentage of Hawks fans are in the 30 to 40 year old age group, and also a reasonable percentage in the 20 to 20 year old age group given the eras of their success.
Probably going to find vastly more obnoxious drinking fans compared to quieter 'enjoy the footy' families and older fans.

[Legs Akimbo]

Did I miss a rule change this year? Several times players appeared to dive into the legs of others, causing them to fall on their back, thereby getting "in the back". I thought you weren't allowed to dive below the knees of another player?

Or maybe it just looked that way from the top of the Ponsford Stand.

Treespririt - this is what got me with the umpiring last night. I admit I am one-eyed but in the third-quarter particularly there seemed to be different interpretations being applied to each team. Within a short period, maybe a minute, I recall we had a free paid against for high when the hawthorn player slid in and then later we had a free paid against when the Sydney player did the same. Did my head in.

There is annoying umpiring when they adopt a particular interpretation for a game and then there is poor umpiring when the interpretation is inconsistent. It always seems to me that we cop the worst of it too.

[crackedactor]

I agree with you legs akimbo, it was getting particular difficult to watch, with the different interpretations occurring quite frequently especially in the second half. Not sure If Umpire Mcinerney was involved, but I have always suspected he has a bit of a "I don't like you" attitude when umpiring swans games. I am also very confused how swans players get taken to the ground just when they are about to grab the player. I mean I thought Dane rampe's in the first quarter was a classic when facing a two on one battle and he just got dragged to the ground so the other hawthorn player could grab it, Did not even have a chance to hold the ball for a milli second.

[dejavoodoo44]

Treespririt - this is what got me with the umpiring last night. I admit I am one-eyed but in the third-quarter particularly there seemed to be different interpretations being applied to each team. Within a short period, maybe a minute, I recall we had a free paid against for high when the hawthorn player slid in and then later we had a free paid against when the Sydney player did the same. Did my head in.

There is annoying umpiring when they adopt a particular interpretation for a game and then there is poor umpiring when the interpretation is inconsistent. It always seems to me that we cop the worst of it too.

Yes, that got to me too. There also seemed to be a somewhat different interpretation of the holding the ball rule, where so many of our tackles went unrewarded.
Let's just hope the inconsistency doesn't spill over to the tribunal. But of course, hoping for consistency from the tribunal is often a forlorn hope. I mean, at the moment, I'm fully expecting McVeigh to get a couple of weeks for his in-play, glancing off the shoulder, hit to the head of a descending Langford. While on the other hand, I expect Sam Mitchell to get exonerated for his off the ball, deliberate elbow to the head, that felled innocent bystander Tom Mitchell.

[707]

Whilst we had some luck to get over the line, don't forget that several times in the past Hawthorn have had that same type of luck to just edge past us. What last nights win does for me is show Hawthorn are beatable and that we came back at them late to score the win, just like GWS did, just like Essendon did.

Like others, I thought we got a rough deal on the frees and I'm not one to be too fussed about frees.

A great win for effort and persistence, now onto a % boosting smashing of the limp wristed Carlton next week if we put in the same effort.

[Ludwig]

I think we came out with such a focus on having a physical presence that other parts of our game were thrown off. Especially since we were so successful with this in the 1st qtr that it continued on through the 2nd until the Hawks' pressure started turning the tide. We put more focus on execution in the second half but our continued loss of the ball at stoppages hurt us until fortunately some good play in the 4th and a good deal of luck gave us the win.

Both sides had their fair share of errors and the ground looked slick with players slipping and miskicking the ball. We learned a lot without losing the game, which in not often the case. We still have a lot of work to do on our ball movement, particularly out of defence and that last kick into our forward line. And something has to change with our stoppage work, when we don't win the ball it's too easy for sides to move the ball quickly from the stoppage and we get left behind in numbers.

I've backed Mike Pyke when we lost Mummy. I really though that we would see the Pyke of 2013, taking contested marks all over the ground and kicking goals, but it simply hasn't happened. I think a ruckman has to give than just contest the ball at a stoppage. Good ruckmen offer something else, like Mummy's physical presence and tackling or Goldstein's good skills around the ground. I think either of Naismith or Nankervis would give us more. Naismith has good pace and skills and is a good tap ruckman. He has the potential to develop into a top ruckman, and Nanko is a bit like Mummy, but a better mark and kick, especially for goal. Another option, and one that I think may be the best, is to drop Pyke for another midfielder and rotate a number of players through the ruck contest including Reid, Tippett, Richards, Buddy, Goodes with Kennedy and Parker going 3rd up. I think we will get a lot more of the ball out of the stoppages this way by having an extra ball handler at the contests instead of fumbling bumbling ruckman.

I thought Jetta had a fantastic game, probably just behind Hanners. Jetta saved us so many times and in so many different ways and in both defence and offence. He played a complete game IMO. Nick Smith always does the job and he was vital last night.

I always had a lot of admiration for Sam Mitchell ( the kind of admiration like I wish he was on our team). He gets scragged every week and a lot of it very rough. I don't think he has much choice in how he plays the game, otherwise he would end up like Marc Murphy.

[treespirit]

Did I miss a rule change this year? Several times players appeared to dive into the legs of others, causing them to fall on their back, thereby getting "in the back". I thought you weren't allowed to dive below the knees of another player?

While I really felt there was some home town umpiring last night, this is a genuine question. Did I miss a change in this rule, as it was not paid at all last night despite some very obvious below the knee contact?

[Triple B]

I missed the game last night, but I watched both Seven's Game Day and Nine's Sunday Footy Show segments on the match. Did the Swans even play last night? Both programs talked only of how Hawthorn were wasteful and how they should have won based on statistics. Brad Sewell being the worst offender by far. Absolutely disgusting post-game summaries, embarrassing. I thought that AFL is Australia's game, not just Victoria's? What year is it?

Correct, it's been all about the Hawks in the media.

Jude managed to give Sewell a drive by with a 'Couldn't find a point about the Swans?' when Sewell did the '3 things I learnt' segment.

[CureTheSane]

For me, in today's game, a ruckman is there to contest the ball, then have the fitness and endurance to play on the ball and to move forward when required and stand on the goal line when the opposition are having a shot from 50 out.
Not many who can do that well, and it's nothing like Pyke.

For him to have his career last a few more years, he needs to drop some kilos and improved his endurance.
At times last night he kind of looked over it...

[mcs]

I think we came out with such a focus on having a physical presence that other parts of our game were thrown off. Especially since we were so successful with this in the 1st qtr that it continued on through the 2nd until the Hawks' pressure started turning the tide. We put more focus on execution in the second half but our continued loss of the ball at stoppages hurt us until fortunately some good play in the 4th and a good deal of luck gave us the win.

Both sides had their fair share of errors and the ground looked slick with players slipping and miskicking the ball. We learned a lot without losing the game, which in not often the case. We still have a lot of work to do on our ball movement, particularly out of defence and that last kick into our forward line. And something has to change with our stoppage work, when we don't win the ball it's too easy for sides to move the ball quickly from the stoppage and we get left behind in numbers.

I've backed Mike Pyke when we lost Mummy. I really though that we would see the Pyke of 2013, taking contested marks all over the ground and kicking goals, but it simply hasn't happened. I think a ruckman has to give than just contest the ball at a stoppage. Good ruckmen offer something else, like Mummy's physical presence and tackling or Goldstein's good skills around the ground. I think either of Naismith or Nankervis would give us more. Naismith has good pace and skills and is a good tap ruckman. He has the potential to develop into a top ruckman, and Nanko is a bit like Mummy, but a better mark and kick, especially for goal. Another option, and one that I think may be the best, is to drop Pyke for another midfielder and rotate a number of players through the ruck contest including Reid, Tippett, Richards, Buddy, Goodes with Kennedy and Parker going 3rd up. I think we will get a lot more of the ball out of the stoppages this way by having an extra ball handler at the contests instead of fumbling bumbling ruckman.

I thought Jetta had a fantastic game, probably just behind Hanners. Jetta saved us so many times and in so many different ways and in both defence and offence. He played a complete game IMO. Nick Smith always does the job and he was vital last night.

I always had a lot of admiration for Sam Mitchell ( the kind of admiration like I wish he was on our team). He gets scragged every week and a lot of it very rough. I don't think he has much choice in how he plays the game, otherwise he would end up like Marc Murphy.

There is no way Goodes could spend time consistently in the ruck - quick way to stuff his fitness with his dodgy knee. I'm not sure Richards is really suited to playing in the ruck either.

If we dropped Pyke for another midfielder, we basically have to go back to how we played early last year when Pyke was out - i.e. completely concede the ruck contest, and just try to win the clearances.

As for Sam Mitchell - great player, but has always been a dirty player, and he has bought a lot of the scragging treatment on himself by being that type of player and dishing it out for most of his career.

- - - Updated - - -

re: Hawks fans not being very well liked.

It would be interesting to see the demographics of fans of all clubs. Memberships should give a fair indication.
I would suggest that a high percentage of Hawks fans are in the 30 to 40 year old age group, and also a reasonable percentage in the 20 to 20 year old age group given the eras of their success.
Probably going to find vastly more obnoxious drinking fans compared to quieter 'enjoy the footy' families and older fans.

Thankfully last night was a much better atmosphere than either Melbourne game last year. There were a few donkeys in the bay next to me, but not racist or abusive ones like last year - that I can put up with. One guy got very boisterous when they went two kicks up in the last, but sulked off into the night very quickly once the siren went

The obnoxious fans I've encountered seem to fit into that group of fans you suggest - i.e. those that grew up in the 80s when the Wees and Poos were beating everyone, and are now enjoying the renaissance by dishing it out at other fans. That group seems to be the worst offenders to me - the success has bred arrogance which has led to some fairly nasty habits for many of them.

[ugg]

Those criticising Pyke have very short memories. I think he was on the edge of getting dropped for Naismith after a poor preseason but from the GWS game onwards his form has been pretty good. He had a massive game against Geelong last week, rucked almost the whole game against Rhys Stanley and I think was still feeling the effects of that game last night

[Ludwig]

There is no way Goodes could spend time consistently in the ruck - quick way to stuff his fitness with his dodgy knee. I'm not sure Richards is really suited to playing in the ruck either.

If we dropped Pyke for another midfielder, we basically have to go back to how we played early last year when Pyke was out - i.e. completely concede the ruck contest, and just try to win the clearances.

Both Goodes and Richards have played in the ruck at times. I'm not saying they do it often, but perhaps a few contests during the game. There is a view (Leigh Mathews, Wayne Carey) that ruckmen do little but take up space. Last year we played Tom Derrickx who is even more useless than Pyke in general play. There have been many times when playing without a ruckman has paid off. WB nearly beat Freo while letting Sandilands go virtually unchallenged in the ruck contests.

[liz]

Those criticising Pyke have very short memories. I think he was on the edge of getting dropped for Naismith after a poor preseason but from the GWS game onwards his form has been pretty good. He had a massive game against Geelong last week, rucked almost the whole game against Rhys Stanley and I think was still feeling the effects of that game last night

Thankyou Ugg. I thought Pyke was ordinary yesterday, but he's had a pretty reasonable season to date. If he's sore, it might be worth testing out Naismith for a short while, especially given we have "byes" for the next two weeks. But if we're there at the pointy end of this season, I fully expect Pyke to be an important part of it.

[Ludwig]

Thankyou Ugg. I thought Pyke was ordinary yesterday, but he's had a pretty reasonable season to date. If he's sore, it might be worth testing out Naismith for a short while, especially given we have "byes" for the next two weeks. But if we're there at the pointy end of this season, I fully expect Pyke to be an important part of it.

Last year Pyke gave up 18 Frees in 19 games. He's already conceded 19 Frees this year. It's really hurting us. He had a reasonable second half last week against a part time ruckman, but was ordinary at best in the first half. I was a big supporter of Pyke until this year because I thought he could only improve since he was still learning the game, but I admit I was wrong and he's gone backwards for some reason. His skills and decision making seem worse than ever.

Pyke's grimace count is up to 8 per game this year:

[Conor_Dillon]

If someone had've told us before the game that Buddy would have no influence, that Mitchell and Cyril would be the Hawks two best players and that we'd have a horror run from the umps, I would have thought we'd get beaten by 10 goals.
To come away with the 4 points and being 2 games clear of Hawthorn is a massive moment in our season. We've had the 3 hardest road trips possible in the first 8 weeks and we're still 6-2. Freo will be hard to catch but we've really set ourselves up well to finish top two. The season is building nicely and we have every right to be optimistic about our premiership chances.