Gil says sorry to Goodsey

[aguy]

Agree with ss bleeder here

We have no idea what is behind buddies mental health issues. If it is indeed depression it can affect anybody regardless of their external environment. I'm sure dejas comments weren't meant to be inflammatory but to me the comment seems to be uneducated and at best completely speculative.

Depression is a widespread real medical disorder with a very solid physiological basis with a number of modalities of treatment. It may or may not be reactive to external triggers.

Educating the public more about depression is the best approach in response to buddies struggle. I would wait until buddy pens an autobiography after his career in footy is finished until commenting on his particular struggle.

[Mug Punter]

Agree with ss bleeder here

We have no idea what is behind buddies mental health issues. If it is indeed depression it can affect anybody regardless of their external environment. I'm sure dejas comments weren't meant to be inflammatory but to me the comment seems to be uneducated and at best completely speculative.

Depression is a widespread real medical disorder with a very solid physiological basis with a number of modalities of treatment. It may or may not be reactive to external triggers.

Educating the public more about depression is the best approach in response to buddies struggle. I would wait until buddy pens an autobiography after his career in footy is finished until commenting on his particular struggle.

As much as I dislike many of S.S. Bleeder's posts I tend to agree with him here....

[Industrial Fan]

MD said the situation caused depression as a fellow indigenous Aussie so it's hardly a ludicrous and baseless comparison.

Personally I can see that while it may not have caused depression directly it is certainly not something that would have helped either.

[dejavoodoo44]

Agree with ss bleeder here

We have no idea what is behind buddies mental health issues. If it is indeed depression it can affect anybody regardless of their external environment. I'm sure dejas comments weren't meant to be inflammatory but to me the comment seems to be uneducated and at best completely speculative.

Depression is a widespread real medical disorder with a very solid physiological basis with a number of modalities of treatment. It may or may not be reactive to external triggers.

Educating the public more about depression is the best approach in response to buddies struggle. I would wait until buddy pens an autobiography after his career in footy is finished until commenting on his particular struggle.

Okay, I'll try to answer your points and some of the points made by others. And please don't read any sarcasm into my reply, as there will be absolutely none intended.
Firstly, yes, we don't really have any strong evidence of the causes of Buddy's problems and yes, my previous post is really quite speculative. But I did think that I made it quite clear that it was speculative, by my constant use of qualifying words, like, "I suspect", "as far as I know", "a wide range of underlying causes", "superficially", "amateur diagnosis", etc. And I also don't see the problem in making speculative suggestions, on what is after all, an internet discussion site. I mean, probably most of the posts on the site would contain some sort of speculation, backed up varying degrees of evidence: which I don't have the slightest problem with.
Secondly, yes, depression is a real medical disorder, in which the sufferers have an almost infinite number of profiles. That is, one person may have a strong genetic disposition to being depressed, because they might have a particular mutation, that inhibits their ability to manufacture a necessary neurotransmitter. While another person may have had a particularly rough childhood, that leads to a tendency to withdraw into themselves. Someone else might have been hit by an increasing range of bad circumstances later in life. While another depression sufferer, may be falling victim to a degenerative neurological disorder, that rearranges their internal landscape into a strange and confusing place. Many people will have none of the above. Some people will have a fair bit of one cause, and just a little bit of another cause. But I suspect that most sufferers will have a wide range of influences that can be broadly classified as 'nature' or 'nurture'. Anyway, the fact that depression can have a wide range of causes, doesn't rule out a cause. That is, on a purely speculative level, while it is possible that Buddy may have a genetic disposition towards being depressed, that definitely does not rule out the prospect that the ugly booing campaign, could have triggered a depressive episode. Or to put it another way, if a person has a mutation that inhibits their ability to repair cellular damage, it doesn't mean that cigarette smoking can be ruled out as a cause of their lung cancer. Nor is the tobacco company exonerated.
Of course, here I am making the assumption that Buddy's problem was a depressive incident, but that is a widely held assumption.
Anyway, to your statement, "It may or not be reactive to external triggers". Well, this is where my post could turn into a very long, esoteric essay, so instead, I'll try to keep it brief. But if we are talking about a mental health issue, then it will be in some measure a reaction to an external trigger, because pretty well everything about the mind is a reaction to external triggers. That is, on the more basic levels, it can be something like: see threat, send message to produce adrenaline, increase heart rate, scan for escape routes, etc. But on a more complex level, the mind is all about processing a huge range of bewildering inputs, in an effort to understand our place in the world, so we can formulate strategies to create a better future. And it is my opinion, that the most important influence for the development of the human mind, is the inputs that we all get from the other humans around us. Or to put it another way, human's are societal creatures. The parts of our minds that are far more developed than any other creatures, are the parts of our minds that relate to our place in society: language processing centres, centres that drive speech, the little bits of the cerebral cortex that seem to be particularly involved in art or music, the moral centre in the left frontal lobe, etc. And it was something of an evolutionary virtuous circle; our minds developed more than other creatures, because we had better social skills, while the increase in our mental power, enabled us to develop better social skills.
I also think that much of our institutions are there to increase social interaction, religion, football, things like that. While being isolated from or ostracized by society, is generally distressing for most.
Anyway, back to Buddy, I wasn't saying that I had definitive proof that I knew what ailed him, nor was I claiming that the affluent don't get depressed, or that there could only be one cause of his problems. What I was speculating on was along the lines of this. Since Buddy's problems seem to be a thing of recent history, then it is probably a reasonable assumption to make, that there may be a trigger or two in the recent past. So, if there is a trigger or two in the recent past, then it's a sensible course of action to examine what has changed and what has stayed the same. So, I listed a few of the things that seemed to have stayed the same. He still seemed be in a good relationship. He was still being payed well, to play our play our great game. The Sydney Swans team culture, still seemed to be that of a supportive team environment and his onfield form was fine. As far as I know, there was no death in the family.
So what changed? Well, while there may well be private issues, that we all are unaware of, it would be pure speculation to claim that things we don't know about could be a trigger for his problems. But we do know that there was definitely one thing around him that changed. The atmosphere at football games changed markedly for the worse. The treatment of Adam Goodes, by some of the more poorly socialised members of society, was a disgrace. And in one important way, the institution of AFL had changed for the worse. That is, previously, the AFL had been a leader in fighting racism and encouraging indigenous involvement, but last year, we had the ugly spectacle of much of that being thrown out the window by a noisy minority, spurred on by the professional media bigots. Buddy had a front row seat to all of that. And to me, as someone who puts a great deal of store, in how societal conditions affect the mind, I really can't see that having anything but a negative affect.
And finally, in one way, I actually agree with you about being a little bit careful, in regards to speculating about mental health on public forums. That is, I wouldn't even think of writing something like my previous post, on a site like Sports Fan or any other site that is frequented by a wider range of the public, because I tend to think that would put an idea out there, that would marginally increase the chances of another booing campaign. But on this site, most of my communication, is like the communication of most other people. Which is, most acts of communication are little acts of optimism, that we engage in, because the core belief of the human mind, is that we can change the future for the better.

[royboy42]

If Buddy's problem is mental, as has been constantly stated, I believe we have no business speculating in here.
And ruminating on why we should not do that, in order to justify the speculation,is disappointing.
My two bob's worth..I'm out.

[liz]

If Buddy's problem is mental, as has been constantly stated, I believe we have no business speculating in here.
And ruminating on why we should not do that, in order to justify the speculation,is disappointing.
My two bob's worth..I'm out.

I agree. And it's only tangentially on topic. Can we please leave the speculation alone now, out of respect for Buddy.

[CureTheSane]

Okay, I'll try to answer your points and some of the points made by others. And please don't read any sarcasm into my reply, as there will be absolutely none intended.
Firstly, yes, we don't really have any strong evidence of the causes of Buddy's problems and yes, my previous post is really quite speculative. But I did think that I made it quite clear that it was speculative, by my constant use of qualifying words, like, "I suspect", "as far as I know", "a wide range of underlying causes", "superficially", "amateur diagnosis", etc. And I also don't see the problem in making speculative suggestions, on what is after all, an internet discussion site. I mean, probably most of the posts on the site would contain some sort of speculation, backed up varying degrees of evidence: which I don't have the slightest problem with.
Secondly, yes, depression is a real medical disorder, in which the sufferers have an almost infinite number of profiles. That is, one person may have a strong genetic disposition to being depressed, because they might have a particular mutation, that inhibits their ability to manufacture a necessary neurotransmitter. While another person may have had a particularly rough childhood, that leads to a tendency to withdraw into themselves. Someone else might have been hit by an increasing range of bad circumstances later in life. While another depression sufferer, may be falling victim to a degenerative neurological disorder, that rearranges their internal landscape into a strange and confusing place. Many people will have none of the above. Some people will have a fair bit of one cause, and just a little bit of another cause. But I suspect that most sufferers will have a wide range of influences that can be broadly classified as 'nature' or 'nurture'. Anyway, the fact that depression can have a wide range of causes, doesn't rule out a cause. That is, on a purely speculative level, while it is possible that Buddy may have a genetic disposition towards being depressed, that definitely does not rule out the prospect that the ugly booing campaign, could have triggered a depressive episode. Or to put it another way, if a person has a mutation that inhibits their ability to repair cellular damage, it doesn't mean that cigarette smoking can be ruled out as a cause of their lung cancer. Nor is the tobacco company exonerated.
Of course, here I am making the assumption that Buddy's problem was a depressive incident, but that is a widely held assumption.
Anyway, to your statement, "It may or not be reactive to external triggers". Well, this is where my post could turn into a very long, esoteric essay, so instead, I'll try to keep it brief. But if we are talking about a mental health issue, then it will be in some measure a reaction to an external trigger, because pretty well everything about the mind is a reaction to external triggers. That is, on the more basic levels, it can be something like: see threat, send message to produce adrenaline, increase heart rate, scan for escape routes, etc. But on a more complex level, the mind is all about processing a huge range of bewildering inputs, in an effort to understand our place in the world, so we can formulate strategies to create a better future. And it is my opinion, that the most important influence for the development of the human mind, is the inputs that we all get from the other humans around us. Or to put it another way, human's are societal creatures. The parts of our minds that are far more developed than any other creatures, are the parts of our minds that relate to our place in society: language processing centres, centres that drive speech, the little bits of the cerebral cortex that seem to be particularly involved in art or music, the moral centre in the left frontal lobe, etc. And it was something of an evolutionary virtuous circle; our minds developed more than other creatures, because we had better social skills, while the increase in our mental power, enabled us to develop better social skills.
I also think that much of our institutions are there to increase social interaction, religion, football, things like that. While being isolated from or ostracized by society, is generally distressing for most.
Anyway, back to Buddy, I wasn't saying that I had definitive proof that I knew what ailed him, nor was I claiming that the affluent don't get depressed, or that there could only be one cause of his problems. What I was speculating on was along the lines of this. Since Buddy's problems seem to be a thing of recent history, then it is probably a reasonable assumption to make, that there may be a trigger or two in the recent past. So, if there is a trigger or two in the recent past, then it's a sensible course of action to examine what has changed and what has stayed the same. So, I listed a few of the things that seemed to have stayed the same. He still seemed be in a good relationship. He was still being payed well, to play our play our great game. The Sydney Swans team culture, still seemed to be that of a supportive team environment and his onfield form was fine. As far as I know, there was no death in the family.
So what changed? Well, while there may well be private issues, that we all are unaware of, it would be pure speculation to claim that things we don't know about could be a trigger for his problems. But we do know that there was definitely one thing around him that changed. The atmosphere at football games changed markedly for the worse. The treatment of Adam Goodes, by some of the more poorly socialised members of society, was a disgrace. And in one important way, the institution of AFL had changed for the worse. That is, previously, the AFL had been a leader in fighting racism and encouraging indigenous involvement, but last year, we had the ugly spectacle of much of that being thrown out the window by a noisy minority, spurred on by the professional media bigots. Buddy had a front row seat to all of that. And to me, as someone who puts a great deal of store, in how societal conditions affect the mind, I really can't see that having anything but a negative affect.
And finally, in one way, I actually agree with you about being a little bit careful, in regards to speculating about mental health on public forums. That is, I wouldn't even think of writing something like my previous post, on a site like Sports Fan or any other site that is frequented by a wider range of the public, because I tend to think that would put an idea out there, that would marginally increase the chances of another booing campaign. But on this site, most of my communication, is like the communication of most other people. Which is, most acts of communication are little acts of optimism, that we engage in, because the core belief of the human mind, is that we can change the future for the better.

Raise your hand if you read all that....

lol

[barry]

RWO should have a word limit. If you cant express yourself in under 50 words you're probably wrong.

[Doctor J.]

Okay, I'll try to answer your points and some of the points made by others. And please don't read any sarcasm into my reply, as there will be absolutely none intended.
Firstly, yes, we don't really have any strong evidence of the causes of Buddy's problems and yes, my previous post is really quite speculative. But I did think that I made it quite clear that it was speculative, by my constant use of qualifying words, like, "I suspect", "as far as I know", "a wide range of underlying causes", "superficially", "amateur diagnosis", etc. And I also don't see the problem in making speculative suggestions, on what is after all, an internet discussion site. I mean, probably most of the posts on the site would contain some sort of speculation, backed up varying degrees of evidence: which I don't have the slightest problem with.
Secondly, yes, depression is a real medical disorder, in which the sufferers have an almost infinite number of profiles. That is, one person may have a strong genetic disposition to being depressed, because they might have a particular mutation, that inhibits their ability to manufacture a necessary neurotransmitter. While another person may have had a particularly rough childhood, that leads to a tendency to withdraw into themselves. Someone else might have been hit by an increasing range of bad circumstances later in life. While another depression sufferer, may be falling victim to a degenerative neurological disorder, that rearranges their internal landscape into a strange and confusing place. Many people will have none of the above. Some people will have a fair bit of one cause, and just a little bit of another cause. But I suspect that most sufferers will have a wide range of influences that can be broadly classified as 'nature' or 'nurture'. Anyway, the fact that depression can have a wide range of causes, doesn't rule out a cause. That is, on a purely speculative level, while it is possible that Buddy may have a genetic disposition towards being depressed, that definitely does not rule out the prospect that the ugly booing campaign, could have triggered a depressive episode. Or to put it another way, if a person has a mutation that inhibits their ability to repair cellular damage, it doesn't mean that cigarette smoking can be ruled out as a cause of their lung cancer. Nor is the tobacco company exonerated.
Of course, here I am making the assumption that Buddy's problem was a depressive incident, but that is a widely held assumption.
Anyway, to your statement, "It may or not be reactive to external triggers". Well, this is where my post could turn into a very long, esoteric essay, so instead, I'll try to keep it brief. But if we are talking about a mental health issue, then it will be in some measure a reaction to an external trigger, because pretty well everything about the mind is a reaction to external triggers. That is, on the more basic levels, it can be something like: see threat, send message to produce adrenaline, increase heart rate, scan for escape routes, etc. But on a more complex level, the mind is all about processing a huge range of bewildering inputs, in an effort to understand our place in the world, so we can formulate strategies to create a better future. And it is my opinion, that the most important influence for the development of the human mind, is the inputs that we all get from the other humans around us. Or to put it another way, human's are societal creatures. The parts of our minds that are far more developed than any other creatures, are the parts of our minds that relate to our place in society: language processing centres, centres that drive speech, the little bits of the cerebral cortex that seem to be particularly involved in art or music, the moral centre in the left frontal lobe, etc. And it was something of an evolutionary virtuous circle; our minds developed more than other creatures, because we had better social skills, while the increase in our mental power, enabled us to develop better social skills.
I also think that much of our institutions are there to increase social interaction, religion, football, things like that. While being isolated from or ostracized by society, is generally distressing for most.
Anyway, back to Buddy, I wasn't saying that I had definitive proof that I knew what ailed him, nor was I claiming that the affluent don't get depressed, or that there could only be one cause of his problems. What I was speculating on was along the lines of this. Since Buddy's problems seem to be a thing of recent history, then it is probably a reasonable assumption to make, that there may be a trigger or two in the recent past. So, if there is a trigger or two in the recent past, then it's a sensible course of action to examine what has changed and what has stayed the same. So, I listed a few of the things that seemed to have stayed the same. He still seemed be in a good relationship. He was still being payed well, to play our play our great game. The Sydney Swans team culture, still seemed to be that of a supportive team environment and his onfield form was fine. As far as I know, there was no death in the family.
So what changed? Well, while there may well be private issues, that we all are unaware of, it would be pure speculation to claim that things we don't know about could be a trigger for his problems. But we do know that there was definitely one thing around him that changed. The atmosphere at football games changed markedly for the worse. The treatment of Adam Goodes, by some of the more poorly socialised members of society, was a disgrace. And in one important way, the institution of AFL had changed for the worse. That is, previously, the AFL had been a leader in fighting racism and encouraging indigenous involvement, but last year, we had the ugly spectacle of much of that being thrown out the window by a noisy minority, spurred on by the professional media bigots. Buddy had a front row seat to all of that. And to me, as someone who puts a great deal of store, in how societal conditions affect the mind, I really can't see that having anything but a negative affect.
And finally, in one way, I actually agree with you about being a little bit careful, in regards to speculating about mental health on public forums. That is, I wouldn't even think of writing something like my previous post, on a site like Sports Fan or any other site that is frequented by a wider range of the public, because I tend to think that would put an idea out there, that would marginally increase the chances of another booing campaign. But on this site, most of my communication, is like the communication of most other people. Which is, most acts of communication are little acts of optimism, that we engage in, because the core belief of the human mind, is that we can change the future for the better.

There's probably some good points in here, but seriously all this says to me is the off season is way too long!

[AnnieH]

Looks like I will now be spending a bit of my day attacking the views of ignorant internet bigots. Grooooaaannn.
Well done Gil.

I attacked them on four different fronts.
Geez there are a lot of ignorant people out there.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually, m d, I think that you may have, probably inadvertently, mentioned what I suspect to be the cause of Buddy's depressive mental health issues. Though, as far as I know, neither Buddy, the club or anyone else, has gone into the triggers, I strongly suspected that it had to do with the booing of Goodesy. While depression can have a wide range of underlying causes, superficially it did seem that Buddy had nothing to be depressed about. He was someone who was being paid handsomely to play a game that he loved in a supportive team environment. He was a respected member of the community, in a good relationship, with a very attractive woman.
So what could have been getting to him?
Well to me, the obvious candidate, would be him turning up each week, to witness the spectacle of a large mob of knuckle dragging, racist idiots booing a champion indigenous player. I suspect this would have been even more disturbing to a fellow indigenous player, who had grown up with Goodesy as a hero and then had this respect confirmed, once they had become team mates.
I also suspect that this amateur diagnosis might be supported, by the silence from the club about the causes. I mean, given the choice of silence from the club, or letting it be known to a group of vindictive morons, that you could posssibly force another indigenous champion out of the game, with another mindless booing campaign, then silence is probably the wise option.

Do you have sore arms?
What a long bow you've drawn.

[S.S. Bleeder]

If Buddy's problem is mental, as has been constantly stated, I believe we have no business speculating in here.
And ruminating on why we should not do that, in order to justify the speculation,is disappointing.
My two bob's worth..I'm out.

+1