JLT Game 1: Sydney Swans v North Melbourne Kangaroos @ Coffs Harbour

[RogueSwan]

Thanks ugg.

Bits that stick out from the stats:

* Darcy Cameron did very well according to Fantasy Footy (that's who measures those points isn't it?). How much time did he spend in the ruck? I see Tippo had more hitouts and Preuss (who??), for North, had as many as the two of them combined.

from my memeory of the game Preuss, who is massive, rucked most of the game himself.

* Foote appears to have marginally outperformed Robinson although neither covered themselves in glory, and Fox marginally outperformed them both (as far as those stats reveal). Can anybody who saw the action (even if not live) comment further on this since they could potentially be competing for the same spot? What roles were they playing? Were Fox and Foote playing more on the ball than Robbo? Did any of them perform better or worse than the stats suggest. I did see couple of comments about Fox doing pretty well albeit not being super polished.

Again, from what I could see, Fox was playing a bit more across the F50 flank whereas Foote and Robinson were playing more of an on ball roll. I find it hard to pinpoint their exact "positions" apart from ball ups. The rest of the time if you were in the midfield the game really dictated whether you were on ball or not. The exceptions being Heeney and Hanners who just seemed to be everywhere, at a ball up then tackling in the last line of defence then winning a ball on the wing.

[bloodspirit]

Thanks, Rogue. Well, that suggests Fox did well, if he was least on ball and still had the better stats than Foote and Robbo.

Incidentally, the stats do indeed show Preuss rucked pretty much the whole game by himself for North. He must be a good tap ruckman. For a (presumably) young, (relatively) unknown to match it with Tippo and Cameron tag-teaming him is a good effort.

[aardvark]

Cameron was good around the ground. Article in the Hun today says he played as a forward the last 2 years so his ruck work is probably a bit rusty still.

[Ludwig]

Another word on Newman.

There are some players that have a big presence on the field and you really notice them. Franklin would be a prime example, and there are also players like Rampe, Heeney, Hanners, Aliir, Rohan and Jones. They catch the attention of the commentators and spectators. Then there are the quiet achievers, like Grundy, Lloyd, Smith and I would even put Josh Kennedy in that category. They do their job with little fanfare. Newman falls into this latter category. He does a lot of little things on the ground that go unnoticed. I was surprised to see that he had 19 disposals. He racked up plenty in the NEAFL as well. But you can still come out of the game wondering if he was playing at all.

I watched a replay of the game with a focus on a few players, Newman being one of them, and thought he had a pretty good game.

[bloodspirit]

Good post, Ludwig. I would find it even more rewarding if you backed up the points you make with more examples and explanation. Why did you conclude after close inspection that Newman had "a pretty good game"? What were the "lot of little things on the ground that [went] unnoticed"? I like that you included Joey in the low profile players - I agree with that assessment overall, although there are games where his presence is just so powerful you can't help but notice it. I feel shallower for realising I tend to favour those less quiet-achieving players (Joey a notable exception). A bit like my taste in classical music - I tend to go for what's obvious. So unrefined!

[Auntie.Gerald]

I have nothing against Newman playing AFL in general but it depends on who else is in the backline

For me I am looking for a particular style of play from our backline

When arguing in my mind what is the best team for Rd 1 vs development of players for finals .....I dont see Newman adding more then he can now

Therefore I lean towards progressing other players in our squad for our backline to be its best come finals

The grand final game we were ambushed and could not cope with the Dogs counter attack run and carry

I don't think we can carry Macca and Newman in our backline ....IF.......u agree that we need much greater flexibility in our backline transitions to be a 2017 contender

I believe the Bulldogs and GWS showed in 2016 how difficult it is to stop the run and carry HBFs when they are running hot

They are only getting better !!!!

We have targeted players the last few years with more speed and penetrating kicks as the game is becoming faster and faster and faster

Newman does have a great kick but the 3 areas I don't like in his game are as follows

1. He tends to stand and wait to kick like Macca which is great if u are sam Mitchell and Burgoyne and the rest of the hawthorn backline is flying past u..... but we already have a slow backline

2. Others play Newmans role already..so why double up.?........ie rampe developed already in 2016 as the loose man kicking out of our 50 and loyd became our primary give and go player along with AA and Macca posting up for our guys running thru

3. Newmans speed in defence and ability to anticipate a tackle does not look AFL at all and his give and go is almost not existent ..... he generally does not keep running to creat the extra man

I have watched him at training a few times and he looks slow

In NEAFL I agree he is a key player and not many can do what does each week

Just not what I want in our Snr backline

Now there is a massive counter argument for Newman

That is - the other fringe player options are no certainties either

[Auntie.Gerald]

Good example of marsh pushed up the ground

3 on 1 quick hands straight to Florent on his left hand .......Florent goals

Subscriptions - M.afl.com.au

[Ludwig]

Our backline is still uncertain, for sure. I would like to see Talia come into the picture, which would allow both Aliir and Rampe a bit more freedom.

Newman has a good turn of speed and is also one of our best endurance athletes. That's one of the things that goes unnoticed about him. He can look slow and lazy, but he is not. He's always looking to take some part in the action, whether offensively or defensively.

One of the little things I've noticed is that when the opposition have the ball and running toward the goal and Newman is on the 'wrong' side of the play, he will run hard to force the ball carrier to dispose of the ball, then he follows up on the next opposition player with the ball, so he makes a strong offensive move by the opposition more difficult to execute. He also does a lot of body work on the opposition, helping to free up our players with the ball.

He often has that dejected look on his face which makes you feel that things are not going well. (Compare to smiley Buddy).

Newman has never played a senior game, so it's hard to say if he will make the grade. He's a good kick. He's been doing it well for a long time. There's every reason to think that he can kick just as well at AFL level as he did at lower levels. Every player stepping up to AFL level has to learn to deal with the increased speed and pressure if they want to succeed. The record shows that players with Newman's performance profile at NEAFL level usually make it at AFL level. But there's no guarantee.

[bloodspirit]

What a nicely reasoned argument, AG & Ludwig! So nice to see a bit of sophistication on the boards! (And I'm not suggesting it's rare - just great to see.)

So Ludwig, are you saying Talia before Marsh (or Newman or Laidler or even Melican or COR)?

My first preference would be that AJ gets back. But leaving that aside for the time being I favour Marsh - in a close fought race. That is by no means set in stone and could change over the course of coming games. I think Marsh has earned his chance with a long period of development in the NEAFL and, although he is not flashy, he is pretty reliable and coming up to AFL speed and can both lock-down and rebound a little. That is predicated on my (current) favoured backline of:

Smith Grundy Rampe
Mills Aliir McVeigh

with Marsh being the 7th defender (starting on the bench) and Jones being able to interchange out of the midfield with Mills or Macca. What's important here is that Mills, Macca and Rampe are capable distributors of the ball by foot which diminishes the need for what Newman offers. However, if they're not there, the equation changes and maybe Newman's stocks rise. If McVeigh's form continues to languish or he is injured then Newman could be a replacement. If COR can continue to improve, especially his disposal and decision-making, then maybe he can overtake Newman by the time the opportunity comes along.

[Ludwig]

My preference for a back line is to have 3 tall defenders, if at least 2 of them are athletic. We now have 6 tall defenders on our list: Grundy, Talia, Aliir, AJ, Maibaum and Melican. All are athletic types except for Grundy. So we can play 3 of them without losing speed in the back line. Rampe has been fantastic playing on taller opponents like Jack Riewoldt and Tayler Walker, but I don't think that's the best role for him. I like him more as an attacking HBF.

Most teams play a system similar to us, with 2 tall forwards plus a resting 2nd ruckman, so it's good to have coverage for 3 talls. Someone like Rampe is handy when you play against a team like Adelaide when you have cover Walker, Jenkins, Lynch and McGovern. With GWS you have to cover monsters like Patton, Cameron and Lobb, so 3 tall defenders makes sense in most cases, if they are mobile. If we had to play against ourselves we would need 3 talls to cover Franklin, Reid and Tippett, and a speedy tallish defender to cover Rohan (which would probably be Rampe in our case).

I have already foreshadowed both Mills and Jones playing in the midfield, even though I expect both to see time in defense this year. If we play 3 talls plus the usual fixtures of Rampe and Smith, then we have 2 spots open in a 7 man defensive setup. We have lots of options with Lloyd almost certain to take one of the spots. McVeigh would be the obvious selection for the other. Newman, Laidler, Marsh, COR, Edwards and Cunningham are key players looking for one of the last spots in the starting side. Let's see how the rest of the pre-season plays out before making a call.

I think Marsh has the talent, but find that he is a slow learner. It doesn't mean he won't make it. It just means it will take patience to see him to make the right decisions without costing us goals. I thought Cunningham played a good game. It's an important year for him. He has the skills and speed. He should make a dangerous half forward if he can apply forward pressure.

[graemed]

We now have 6 tall defenders on our list: Grundy, Talia, Aliir, AJ, Maibaum and Melican. All are athletic types except for Grundy.

Very harsh Ludwig.
I doubt Reg would agree with you.

[Mug Punter]

My preference for a back line is to have 3 tall defenders, if at least 2 of them are athletic. We now have 6 tall defenders on our list: Grundy, Talia, Aliir, AJ, Maibaum and Melican. All are athletic types except for Grundy. So we can play 3 of them without losing speed in the back line. Rampe has been fantastic playing on taller opponents like Jack Riewoldt and Tayler Walker, but I don't think that's the best role for him. I like him more as an attacking HBF.

Most teams play a system similar to us, with 2 tall forwards plus a resting 2nd ruckman, so it's good to have coverage for 3 talls. Someone like Rampe is handy when you play against a team like Adelaide when you have cover Walker, Jenkins, Lynch and McGovern. With GWS you have to cover monsters like Patton, Cameron and Lobb, so 3 tall defenders makes sense in most cases, if they are mobile. If we had to play against ourselves we would need 3 talls to cover Franklin, Reid and Tippett, and a speedy tallish defender to cover Rohan (which would probably be Rampe in our case).

I have already foreshadowed both Mills and Jones playing in the midfield, even though I expect both to see time in defense this year. If we play 3 talls plus the usual fixtures of Rampe and Smith, then we have 2 spots open in a 7 man defensive setup. We have lots of options with Lloyd almost certain to take one of the spots. McVeigh would be the obvious selection for the other. Newman, Laidler, Marsh, COR, Edwards and Cunningham are key players looking for one of the last spots in the starting side. Let's see how the rest of the pre-season plays out before making a call.

I think Marsh has the talent, but find that he is a slow learner. It doesn't mean he won't make it. It just means it will take patience to see him to make the right decisions without costing us goals. I thought Cunningham played a good game. It's an important year for him. He has the skills and speed. He should make a dangerous half forward if he can apply forward pressure.

I don't think he'll be there round 1 but I would not be surprised to see Maibaum have a senior spot locked by the end of the season.

Marsh looks like he has come back in tip top shape physically and I suspect he is very coachable and they clearly rate his resilience. I think he will be a 100 gamer in time but I think he'll be a late bloomer. As long as he keeps learning and developing, 10 senior games this year would be a good season for him building on a debut year in 2016.

Not sure how I view Edwards from two hitouts. He seems quite a Busy player but I don't see him anywhere near our best 22 at this stage but there's definitely something to work on there. I like the look of Fox, and not only because he has the same stylist as Dane Rampe. He's impressed in both games so far and if he continues to hold his current form line he could well be a round 1 bolter. As I think I mentioned before, I'd have him and COR as my senior list LTIL upgrades at this stage.

Feeling this could be a breakout year for Jones this year, really hope we can get him tied up to a new deal asap but fear if he has a breakout year we may struggle to keep him....

[MattW]

.... Feeling this could be a breakout year for Jones this year, really hope we can get him tied up to a new deal asap but fear if he has a breakout year we may struggle to keep him....

I agree with the first part of that sentence, but not the second. When did the Swans last lose a top player they didn't want to lose? Jones is just coming into his own, has spoken glowingly of the club recently, and I bet his brother (a one club player) is advising him to stay. He's a priority signing and we'll get it done.

[Ludwig]

Very harsh Ludwig.
I doubt Reg would agree with you.

No offence meant to Reg. I think he's a great defender. I think Reg might agree with me that he's a different kind of defender than Aliir. Every time needs a defender like Reg.

I don't think he'll be there round 1 but I would not be surprised to see Maibaum have a senior spot locked by the end of the season.

Feeling this could be a breakout year for Jones this year, really hope we can get him tied up to a new deal asap but fear if he has a breakout year we may struggle to keep him....

The 2013 draft was really good for us with Jones, Hewett, Nanka and Aliir. All four picks were winners. I'm liking Jones more every time I see him play. I don't see him leaving the Swans.

All of my posts about this past draft crop have been very upbeat. Again, I think all 4 of our ND picks will make it. Our rookies are quite good as well. The little bits I saw of Sam Fisher were encouraging. He's a clever player with an accurate kick and will be the surprise package of the rookie crop.

It's hard to say who our tall defenders will be by season's end, especially with AJ on the mend. But I do agree that Maibaum looks to have the makings of a good defender. Melican wasn't bad either. I'm glad we stuck with him and hope he can get through the season injury free.

We really have a good balance of experienced and developing players in all areas of the ground. I feel this is the best list the Swans have ever had. I hope it's good enough to match GWS.

[707]

When I saw Fox I was thinking 70s porn star! With that kind of look it's good that he seems to have footy ability.

Liking the well thought through discussions on here but I still think our depth is very shaky with most comments relying on several fringe players rising to the challenge.

Just no comparison between our last 5-6 chosen and the last 5-6 for GWS. Using the universally accepted Champion Data ratings, GWS last 5-6 players in their 22 are Kelly, Hopper, Tomlinson, Whitfield, Buntine & Patton PLUS six first rounders after that - scary what the AFL has created!