Match Day Thread Rnd. 5. Sydney V GWS. SCG. 19.25 pm.

[cruiser]

It's supporters like you and I Wardy who need a shrink for all four GF losses. ????

[wolftone57]

Forgot all about Melican with the big loss. He was really good. In fact, I thought he was one of our best.

I think we have 3 options regarding a ruckman:

1. Cameron: Worth a try if fit. He's pretty good around the ground. Takes marks. Kicks goals.
2. Aliir: Hate to take him out of defence, but I think he would be tremendous in the ruck and we wouldn't have to worry about those silly free kicks costing us goals. Has a big hurt factor.
3. Don't play a ruckman. Just play another midfielder at the ruck contests. If we are the only team that does it, then other teams won't be prepared for it. It will be a POD for us, and a much needed one. We just setup to play a style of game that doesn't depend on winning the tap outs.

We might be looking at Aliir. He has a prodigious leap. Cameron it seems has injured his hip. OOOOOUUUCCCCHHHH! Talia played well in the reserves.

[wolftone57]

I know this might sound funny, but Buddy needs to step up. He is one of the all time greats but is certainly not playing like one.

Lot of heat (rightfully so) on Jack, Parker, Hanners etc but Buddy seems to escape the criticism.

that's because when the others are playing well Bud can easily get into the play. but when they aren't he can't get supply. It is all about supply. Even when he tried to get his own ball he was surrounded by plenty of GWS and our blokes didn't work hard enough to provide a block or option for him.

[wolftone57]

Mills addressing the players during a break? For so many senior players to be out of form there are signs that it might be discord within the group rather than injuries.

I agree with this. I think the mentality that you give the senior players every chance under the sun but drop a junior player after one bad game is crap and I believe so do the junior players. Newman was one of our best last week but gets dropped, why? Unbelievable! horse is so inured with our senior players he has forgotten about form. But the other thing he forgets about is ability. I love Jordan Foote's perseverance but his ability is below par. Horse loves him because he is a bang, crash player. but sometimes you have to move on from old, tired game plans and try some players who actually have a thing called talent. negative tactics are killing us an Foote is a negative tactic.

[wolftone57]

There has been a lot of valid criticism of our star midfielders, especially Hanners and Parker. I don't know what the problem is with them. It's hard to see why 2 of the best midfielders in the league at the peak of their careers should fall away so much. For those who say our midfield is too slow, just imagine if we still had Mitchell.

We don't have to think about a premiership this year, so we can cut the emotion and just focus on building the kind of team that can win in the future, a team with speed and skill. It's easy to see what it looks like. We saw it last night, but it wasn't wearing red and white.

The number 1 problem we have, and it's not a new one, is moving the ball out of defence.

• Drop Reg. He's been great, but is too slow and fumbley.
• Move Lloyd out of defence. He's one of our better players now, but he's not a defender and can be exploited 1 on 1.
• Move Mills to the midfield. He's okay in defence, but he's needed more in the middle.
• Play 3 tall defenders: Talia (could be Maibaum in future), Aliir and Melican.
• Bring Newman back. He may be the best kick on the team. Should be taking the kick ins.
• Use Jones for run and carry out of defence.
• O'Riordan could become part of the defence if we have a rookie elevation spot open.
• When Rampe comes back, put him in the midfield. He's a big body with good pace.
• Smith stays for now, but I would be grooming Sam Fisher to play the small defender role in the future.
• Laidler has played well in the NEAFL. He's a good player. Just a bit slow. Good depth to have at the club.
• Our defence (8 players): Talia, Aliir, Melican, Newman, Marsh, Smith, Jones, O'Riordan.

Number 2 problem is the ruck. Most of the time they seem to be injured, so it's hard to plan who is playing.

• I don't know what to do with Tippett. He's only 30 and is still has another year on his big contract. So what do we do with him. For now, he may have to play in the reserves to see if he can regain form. He has to play as a ruckman if he plays as anything.
• Naismith is a good tap ruckman, but he's a liability around the ground. Needs to fix that part of his game. Injured too often anyway.
• Sinclair? Do we have to say more?
• Cameron looks the best option. If he can hold his own in the ruck he adds a lot around the ground with his marking and goal kicking. But needs to be tested at AFL level.
• Left field option 1: Play Aliir in the ruck. I think this could be his best position. I like the fact that he could pop up anywhere on the ground. He can be very damaging.
• Left field option 2: Play Towers in the ruck. He can make a contest because of his leap. Makes up 15 or more cms on true sized ruckmen. Wish he were a better player, but for a ruckman, would be good around the ground.
• Left field option 3: Don't play any ruckman. Just have a midfielder make a bit of a contest without making physical contact then try to win the ball back with having that extra midfielder at ground level.

Put McVeigh on the LTIL. Even if he recovers from his calf and now hamstring injury he can't add anything to this team. He's going to retire at the end of the year anyway. Elevate O'Riordan.

Put Kieran Jack on the LTIL. I don't know what his problem is, but he clearly is not well. Give him an 8 week rest and try to get him fixed up. Elevate Edwards. Not the perfect player, but brings a lot of energy to the game, something we are lacking.

We are in a good position to experiment now and try a few different things. We should be able to find a solution by the end of the season. It will help with our end of season decisions on player movements and drafting.

The worst thing we could do is to do the same old thing and just say (as our coach often does): "We have to get better." Saying it week after week won't make it happen. Let's not waste the year completely.

Everything you have said is very sensible. but i still think there is a greater problem not being addressed. No good changing the guard if they are all changing into the same uniforms. Stinky. Our game plan stinks. Our stoppage set ups are terrible. Our kick in set ups are the same as the last two years and are so predictable. We need to turn over some coaching staff and get people in with new ideas. Not that new ideas are going to help if they are not being utilised. It seems to me that Horse is very resistant to new ideas. It took several games last year in the preseason until the assistants were able to get the new stoppage set ups working. even then they had to revert to the old set ups some of the time. The idea of setting nobody on our offensive side, our player peels off to the middle of the centre circle leaving the opponent alone on the defensive side, is suicide. Now I'm depressed

[wolftone57]

I agree with much of this.

******

We let go of Mumford to get Buddy, not Tippett. Highly regrettable that it was necessary.

*******

Ludwig, I congratulate you on your constructive criticism and concrete proposed solutions. However I dont agree with most of it/them. In particular I don't agree that at a time when we already have one of the youngest and less experienced teams that we can afford to keep jettisoning more and more of our senior players just because they are underperforming. In most cases they are still at least as good and likely better than the alternative and they have a wealth of knowledge and experience that we need them to use to guide the new blood.

The players we are talking about have been great for the club and excellent across the competition for a long time and there time is not up yet. Kizza and Macca may be exceptions. I don't know what's wrong with Kizza but possibly he needs a spell in the twos. With Macca I don't think we should rush him back in to the side but his on field direction and leadership may be something that we could really use - but not if he can't play properly.

Reg and Smooch we need in the backline given the inexperience around them . Smooch has long been celebrated at our club and was finally recognised as All Australian. Reg is coming off his best ever season where many thought he was unlucky not to be recognised All Australian. Neither is yet 30 years old. Now if they were underperforming and surrounded by stability that would be one thing. But Mal and Marty are long gone. Teddy is gone. Rampe is out. Macca is out. We've got players like Swampy, AA, Newman, Melican and even Mills around them. Not only might this explain why their play is suffering but it shows why we need to stick fat with them and get them playing well again. Only once the newer blood is better established and performing better themselves will we be able to afford the luxury of dropping these guys if they are still underperforming. I was impressed by Melican, who did his job, last night but I can't say he was really better than Grundy. We need a mix of old and new and to allow the old to teach the new. Even if the old are not at their peak they have the knowledge and we need to ensure they pass on what they can. It is a pity that Reg is not better at this. He he seems neither a natural nor enthusiastic leader. Incidentally, one of the many things I like about Newman is that, in the 2s, he exhibits a fair bit of leadership. I hope he makes it back to seniors sooner rather than later.

*****

Returning to the coaches, I am standing by Horse. But perhaps we need some other new blood? Perhaps Dew will soon get a well earned senior opportunity somewhere and we can look to bring in someone with fresh ideas? Are Playfair and Francou continuing to perform well? It's impossible to gauge from outside but I hope and expect the club is considering these issues.

If those experienced players you are talking about have a wealth of knowledge, which I'm sure they do, why have we not seen it on display? Their form is lamentable and Ludwig is right there has to be repercussions. If we take all those under performing players into next weeks match we will get flogged. carlton is coached by Brendan Bolton, who you might remember was assistant to Clarko, he is playing young players but those young players will exploit our old, slow out of form players mate.

as for trusting Horse. The selections last week were unbelievable. Newman out yet Foote & Jack stay in. Stuff that. I will say this Kizza is a liability on the team. At least Goodsie had the guts to drop himself to the reserves to get form. Not so Kizza!

[Billericay]

as for trusting Horse. The selections last week were unbelievable. Newman out yet Foote & Jack stay in. Stuff that. I will say this Kizza is a liability on the team. At least Goodsie had the guts to drop himself to the reserves to get form. Not so Kizza!

I was baffled by Horse's selections last week. The only way I could justify it was to imagine that he wanted to keep it simple, pick the "hardest" at the ball team he could, and focus on winning the contested ball. Hmmmm

Let's hope there are changes in personnel and approach this week.

[Sandridge]

Of course I knew that, and I don't think it should be necessary to sledge players, but we all know it happens all the time. I can sympathize with someone using a term directed at a person which a 3rd party might find offensive. It can be really hard to keep up with who gets offended by what terms. When I was a kid everyone used the word retard as a sledge, but no one thought it was offensive to mentally disabled people. We just didn't think about it. The term mentally retarded was the 'official' term applied to the mentally disabled. I couldn't tell you what the 'correct' term is now. Maybe it's because I've been living out of Australia for 6 years and I just don't get to hear the common vernacular.

I don't think people should be vilified. That's for sure. I took a very strong stand on the Adam Goodes incidents, because it was clearly racial vilification. But I also believe in free speech and we should carefully consider putting limitations on that freedom. I think there are times when we have to let some people be offended in order to protect that freedom.

I think Rhyce Shaw's sledge, and a lot of other things he does, is very poor form, but he didn't use the term 'retard' to vilify the mentally disabled.

Freedom of speech should be cherished. We have to understand that's it's a freedom that permits people to say offensive things. It permits people to blatantly lie. If we want to keep that freedom, it comes with the territory.

Please read the update part of wolftone's post #246 again. Explains perfectly why Heath Shaw's sledge was offensive.

[wolftone57]

Sorry, but I don't see it that way. Form varies, and I have faith that ours will turn.
The word 'rebuilding' being used right now?
To me that's laughable.
I get that some people will get frustrated and give up, but I still think we can turn it all around.

The incurable optimist. I'm not convinced we can turn this around at all. Game plan is a problem. So is personnel. The worst disposers in our club are; Smithy, Reg, JPK, Hannas, Kizza, Parksie, BJ, Tip & harry. Basically all the mids and most of the backs. Laids is not too good either. The best disposers; Newman, Melican, Talia, Aliir (when in form), Hayward, Dawson, Rose, Edwards (even though somewhat erratic he does manage 78% DE), Fisher, Towers, Cameron, Rampe, Lloyd, Jones, Papley, Bud, Heens, Mills, Florent.

I don't know if you get the drift but most of the best disposers are young players. The rest butcher the ball. towers is proving he has no ticker just like Bedford once said. Was hoping that would be different.

[wolftone57]

When you play 13 debutantes in 1 year + 5 games, it looks like rebuilding to me. It's not a curse word. Even though we are in the bottom 2 right now, it doesn't mean we can't be a decent competitive team in the process. I expect we will go on some sort of a winning streak now as we enter an easier part of the fixture. But there is no denying that there is a big gulf between us and GSW.

I think we had and excellent draft and expect 6 or 7 out of the 9 players drafted to make it in the AFL. That's a big number for one draft. Florent and Hayward are still a bit too young right now to handle a quality side like the Giants, but wait till next year. Fox looked okay. Fisher will be a good player.

Agree but I think regenerating is more the word. Rebuilding is a long process and Brendan Bolton is in that stage. He is looking beyond Gibbs Kruzer, Murphy etc. We are trying desperately to hang onto players like Parker, JPK, Hannas, Harry?, Tip, Bud, Smithy etc as we see them as part of the bright future. I don't see us as a 2-3 year proposition. I see us as a one year down, probably middle, side and next year up. But the coaching has to change not just the players.

[wolftone57]

I am confused by what you write. You seem to be contradicting yourself. On the one hand I agree with this paragraph (above). However, as you point out in your next post, we are already doing this. We *have* already blooded 13 since the beginning of last season with the prospect of more debutants to come. We already have one of the league's youngest sides.

However I think it would be a mistake to overdo it. We need the more experienced players to guide all the new blood. If you are only talking about dropping one additional player, Reg, then I still don't agree but that sounds more reasonable. But you seem to be going further and saying we should stop playing now all the players that we don't see as being part of our longer term future and I don't agree with that. As regards Reg in particular, I think even if we wish to transition to a more aggressive, rebounding defence, there is still room for one or more staunchly defensive individuals in the mix.

No we need to play only form players not those who live on reputation alone. Look at what freo have been able to do with young players. Maybe we chose to play Ollie & Will on talent alone and that was a mistake as their bodies were probably not ready. But there are others in the reserves who's bodies are ready and waiting. I think, like Ludwig, we have to bite bullet and play the young guys. all the out of form players go out. Injured players go out.

Next week this is what I'd do;

Out: Reg, Smithy, Foote, Tippett, K Jack, Hannas (to have his knee scraped as he should have at the end of last season). Cunningham & Parker stay in because they are the best of the worst and there is an upside. Come to think of it if Parksie is injured he goes too but if not Harry. I prefer Dawson

In; Rose, Aliir (ruck), Talia (played very well in reserves, has all season), Newman, Edwards, (upgrade for Hannas), Cameron (if fit), Dawson.

I think Jordan Dawson was given a pretty bum wrap. You should never just give a young player one game unless he is so unready, like Naismith's first or X. I think toward the end of his first game Dawson was starting to get the feel of it.

[Auntie.Gerald]

I don't have answers right now
Just lots of questions

Re the one game thing for a junior player

I have never had a problem with that as supporter, coach or player in any sport

Give the youth a taste and if they can't make it stick then they know exactly the areas of improvement needed

They won't find these areas when they dominate neafl each week

[wolftone57]

Can you imagine Horse going to training and saying "guys we are 0-5, you have no chance to win the flag. By the way we are dropping some you senior guys because we have no faith you can turn the team around. But stick around as we need you to play reserves and help rebuild the club."

The problem is not with our backline. No one could defend against the speed of entry they are facing. Wave after wave. The midfield is the cause of all our problems. We are missing a couple of quality inside midfielders that can take the heat off Hannebery and Parker. Their bodies are broken after years of being the best with little support around them. Hewett is trying but we have nothing after that. Lloyd and Cuuningham can't play inside, Robinson keeps getting injured, Foote not up to it and Florent is still developing. Is there any more???? Certainly don't want to destroy Heeney and Mills by throwing them inside the packs. No one should under estimate the physical toll they endure week after week. We are missing Mitchell and even McGlynn provided some inside grunt. Jones would love the physical nature of the midfield trenches, but we need to find another quality young inside midfielder. I wonder if we had our time again would Powell-Pepper have been a better choice. Recruiting one may be our best option.

Yes the midfield is the cause of our problems. But mainly because Horse & co seem to think that you can turn outside mids into top inside mids. You bloody well can't! Hannas was a perfectly good outside mid and most of his best work is still done there. But Horse, instead of recruiting another inside mid, decided he should be an inside mid at times. He isn't good at it and gets injured constantly. Hannas is a wonderful spread player. Why not use his real talent as the inside job is killing the kid with injury and psychologically. mills, Heens, Foxy, Fisher, Dawson, Lloydy & Jonsie can all play inside if we need. After Hannas gets his knee scraped he should only play outside spread. Use his speed and ability to provide space. If you use him inside you kill his ability to spread because he tires.

- - - Updated - - -

Now that we've got some quality forwards back in Papley, Rohan (swinging to backline) and Heeney (also through midfield) we should get Jack back in the middle. He's not a small forward and we need another hard head over the ball

Jack is baked. Forget him.

[Ludwig]

Next week this is what I'd do;

Out: Reg, Smithy, Foote, Tippett, K Jack, Hannas (to have his knee scraped as he should have at the end of last season). Cunningham & Parker stay in because they are the best of the worst and there is an upside. Come to think of it if Parksie is injured he goes too but if not Harry. I prefer Dawson

In; Rose, Aliir (ruck), Talia (played very well in reserves, has all season), Newman, Edwards, (upgrade for Hannas), Cameron (if fit), Dawson.

I think Jordan Dawson was given a pretty bum wrap. You should never just give a young player one game unless he is so unready, like Naismith's first or X. I think toward the end of his first game Dawson was starting to get the feel of it.

I generally agree with these changes, except that even if Hannas needs a chondroplasty he would only miss a couple of games, so wouldn't be put on the LTIL, therefore, no upgrade of a rookie for him. If this is his problem, it would be a good time to do it, as he would probably only miss the Carlton and Brisbane games. I'm also not ready to pull the plug on Smith. I think he's among a number of senior players that just needs to get back into form. I don't think he needs time in the reserves to do it and expect he will be a key part of our defence for several years to come.

[mattybloods]

Jack is baked. Forget him.

If Jack is healthy he needs to play midfield. If he's not fit drop him, stop using him up forward


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk