Lies, damned lies and statistics

[barry]

Rohans CD data was terrible.

[neilfws]

Drawn games in the VFL/AFL

Great questions! And timely as I return to work today and need to refresh the data crunching skills, so I'll give it a go. But first my related question: how many drawn games have there been with not just the same total score, but the same number of goals and behinds?

1. How many drawn games have there been?

156.

2. Which club has been involved in the greatest number of drawn games?

Essendon I think, with 35.

3. Which two clubs have been involved in the most draws with each other? (Two correct answers)

Essendon v Geelong and Carlton v South Melbourne (4 each).

4. Which current club has played the most games since their last draw?

I'm guessing Adelaide, since they have drawn only once in round 14, 1994.

5. GWS has played two draws in a row. How many times has this happened in the same season?

Three. Carlton in rounds 1 and 2 1911, Carlton in rounds 4 and 5 1921 and GWS in rounds 15 and 16 2017.

6. Which season has had the greatest number of drawn games?

1921 (5 games).

7. What was the highest score in a drawn game?

132. Essendon v Carlton, round 2 1993.

8. How many drawn finals have there been?

Pretty sure this is 8. GF in 1948, 1977, 2010. PF in 1962. SF in 1928, 1946, 1972. QF in 1990.

9. Which two clubs were involved in the first draw in the 1897 season?

Fitzroy and South Melbourne, round 7. Also the same score: 5.13.43.

10. In what season did South Melbourne make the finals because they had drawn a game?

Had to look this one up. 1977, round 7 draw put them half a game clear of Carlton.

This all goes to show that draws are rather rare. When I mentioned knee-jerk reactions to rare events in the Bugg thread, the response to the 2010 GF draw was in my mind.

[Thunder Shaker]

Great questions! And timely as I return to work today and need to refresh the data crunching skills, so I'll give it a go. But first my related question: how many drawn games have there been with not just the same total score, but the same number of goals and behinds?

1. How many drawn games have there been?

156.

2. Which club has been involved in the greatest number of drawn games?

Essendon I think, with 35.

3. Which two clubs have been involved in the most draws with each other? (Two correct answers)

Essendon v Geelong and Carlton v South Melbourne (4 each).

4. Which current club has played the most games since their last draw?

I'm guessing Adelaide, since they have drawn only once in round 14, 1994.

5. GWS has played two draws in a row. How many times has this happened in the same season?

Three. Carlton in rounds 1 and 2 1911, Carlton in rounds 4 and 5 1921 and GWS in rounds 15 and 16 2017.

6. Which season has had the greatest number of drawn games?

1921 (5 games).

7. What was the highest score in a drawn game?

132. Essendon v Carlton, round 2 1993.

8. How many drawn finals have there been?

Pretty sure this is 8. GF in 1948, 1977, 2010. PF in 1962. SF in 1928, 1946, 1972. QF in 1990.

9. Which two clubs were involved in the first draw in the 1897 season?

Fitzroy and South Melbourne, round 7. Also the same score: 5.13.43.

10. In what season did South Melbourne make the finals because they had drawn a game?

Had to look this one up. 1977, round 7 draw put them half a game clear of Carlton.

This all goes to show that draws are rather rare. When I mentioned knee-jerk reactions to rare events in the Bugg thread, the response to the 2010 GF draw was in my mind.

All answers correct except for one.

3. Which two clubs have been involved in the most draws with each other? (Two correct answers) Carlton-Essendon and Carlton-South Melbourne/Sydney - 6 draws

From afltables:
6-May-1911 R2 Carlton 10.6.66 South Melbourne 10.6.66 Princes Park
3-May-1913 R2 Carlton 8.13.61 South Melbourne 9.7.61 Princes Park
16-May-1914 R4 South Melbourne 8.4.52 Carlton 7.10.52 Lake Oval
4-Jun-1921 R5 South Melbourne 10.10.70 Carlton 10.10.70 Lake Oval
26-Jul-1952 R14 South Melbourne 10.16.76 Carlton 10.16.76 Lake Oval
27-May-1967 R7 South Melbourne 11.12.78 Carlton 11.12.78 Lake Oval

29-Apr-1911 R1 Essendon 5.15.45 Carlton 6.9.45 East Melbourne
3-May-1924 R2 Carlton 7.14.56 Essendon 7.14.56 Princes Park
3-Apr-1993 R2 Essendon 20.12.132 Carlton 19.18.132 M.C.G.
22-Jul-2006 R16 Essendon 16.9.105 Carlton 15.15.105 M.C.G.
16-Apr-2011 R4 Carlton 11.13.79 Essendon 11.13.79 M.C.G.
30-Aug-2014 R23 Carlton 14.6.90 Essendon 13.12.90 M.C.G.

A few interesting facts about these sequences:
* For the first four South Melbourne-Carlton draws, these were South Melbourne's only drawn games in that period.
* Carlton's last three drawn games have been with Essendon (and four out of the last five).

[neilfws]

All answers correct except for one.

...double-checks code...gah, finds cases where the space after "South" is missing that were not counted! Thanks.

It really is a game designed to ensure a winner most times, isn't it. Guess that's why I never liked soccer, all those 0-0 games.

[Beerman]

Rohans CD data was terrible.

This is true, and consistent with the view that he goes missing in big games. I would be interested in seeing the correlation between his CD score and how contested the game is.

Towers I also thought was pretty poor, but his CD stats were about average for him. (Which would be pretty poor, according to some , but actually not *that* bad).

[Beerman]

Jumping the gun a bit on this stat, but if AJ plays in seniors again then it will be over 5 years between games. I thought that this would go pretty close to being the longest time between games, but it turns out it's not even in the top 10! It would in fact be the 12th longest, and this is unlikely to change as the 11th is 8 yrs, 82 days.

[goswannies]

Jumping the gun a bit on this stat, but if AJ plays in seniors again then it will be over 5 years between games. I thought that this would go pretty close to being the longest time between games, but it turns out it's not even in the top 10! It would in fact be the 12th longest, and this is unlikely to change as the 11th is 8 yrs, 82 days.

Yeah but I'm not sure you should include so if those "records" as the VFA was pretty big at the turn of last century & a lot of those lengthy gaps between games were due to either crossing from the VFL to the VFA or WWI interrupted careers

[Thunder Shaker]

Jumping the gun a bit on this stat, but if AJ plays in seniors again then it will be over 5 years between games. I thought that this would go pretty close to being the longest time between games, but it turns out it's not even in the top 10! It would in fact be the 12th longest, and this is unlikely to change as the 11th is 8 yrs, 82 days.

If he does make it back, he would be the record holder among current players by a long way.

[Doctor J.]

All answers correct except for one.

3. Which two clubs have been involved in the most draws with each other? (Two correct answers) Carlton-Essendon and Carlton-South Melbourne/Sydney - 6 draws

From afltables:
6-May-1911 R2 Carlton 10.6.66 South Melbourne 10.6.66 Princes Park
3-May-1913 R2 Carlton 8.13.61 South Melbourne 9.7.61 Princes Park
16-May-1914 R4 South Melbourne 8.4.52 Carlton 7.10.52 Lake Oval
4-Jun-1921 R5 South Melbourne 10.10.70 Carlton 10.10.70 Lake Oval
26-Jul-1952 R14 South Melbourne 10.16.76 Carlton 10.16.76 Lake Oval
27-May-1967 R7 South Melbourne 11.12.78 Carlton 11.12.78 Lake Oval

29-Apr-1911 R1 Essendon 5.15.45 Carlton 6.9.45 East Melbourne
3-May-1924 R2 Carlton 7.14.56 Essendon 7.14.56 Princes Park
3-Apr-1993 R2 Essendon 20.12.132 Carlton 19.18.132 M.C.G.
22-Jul-2006 R16 Essendon 16.9.105 Carlton 15.15.105 M.C.G.
16-Apr-2011 R4 Carlton 11.13.79 Essendon 11.13.79 M.C.G.
30-Aug-2014 R23 Carlton 14.6.90 Essendon 13.12.90 M.C.G.

A few interesting facts about these sequences:
* For the first four South Melbourne-Carlton draws, these were South Melbourne's only drawn games in that period.
* Carlton's last three drawn games have been with Essendon (and four out of the last five).

This was my first ever game I attended. Thanks Dad, for introducing me to a lifetime of pleasure and pain.

[stevoswan]

I saw this on twitter:

Players averaging 30+ disp / 2+ goals in a season

1968 Bob Skilton
2017 Patrick Dangerfield

How good was Bobby? A freaking legend......way ahead of his time!

[Beerman]

Yeah but I'm not sure you should include so if those "records" as the VFA was pretty big at the turn of last century & a lot of those lengthy gaps between games were due to either crossing from the VFL to the VFA or WWI interrupted careers

Yep. The players ahead of him generally missed games between 1910-20, which I assume are at least partly war related. There were a few in the 1930s and into the 40s (although a couple returned in the early 40s). He would be the longest since 1944.

In any case, it's a remarkable achievement. It would have to be the longest injury layoff you would think.

[Thunder Shaker]

What was the biggest loss by a side that had more scoring shots?

[goswannies]

Yep. The players ahead of him generally missed games between 1910-20, which I assume are at least partly war related. There were a few in the 1930s and into the 40s (although a couple returned in the early 40s). He would be the longest since 1944.

In any case, it's a remarkable achievement. It would have to be the longest injury layoff you would think.

The top seven players as far as time between VFL/AFL games (and all missed more than 9 years).

1. Syd Barker - spent 13 years in the VFA with North Melbourne between VFL games in 1908 and 1921

2. Ted Fisher - not sure what happened between his single game with StKilda (1907) and 10 years later playing 4 games with Richmond (1918) though he did serve in WW1

3. Bill Twomey - allowed 10 years to pass between his final stint with Collingwood (1922) and resuming with Hawthorn (1933) during which he pursed an athletic career (winning a Stawell Gift in 1924)

4. Harry Britter - had his career with Geelong (1914) and then Geelong (1924) interrupted for just under 10 years when he enlisted for WW1 in 1915

5. Bert Atkins - just under 10 years between his last game for South (1908) and resuming with the Saints (1918). Although his hiatus spanned WW1, he actually played with Essendon Association in the VFA from 1909-1917

6. Billy Walsh - played 3 games for Melbourne in 1934 and returned to the VFL in 1944 for a single game with Fitzroy. In between he played with Preston in the VFA

7. Ernest Cazaly - brother of our Roy Cazaly, had a two game VFL career with the Saints, his debut in 1910, and his second and final game in just over 9 years later 1919. Not sure what happened in between (except for WW1 & the StKilda football club did go into recess from 1916-1917).

I gave up at this point

[goswannies]

What was the biggest loss by a side that had more scoring shots?

Fitzroy 2.27(39) lost to Geelong 19.8(122)

[Beerman]

The top seven players as far as time between VFL/AFL games (and all missed more than 9 years).

1. Syd Barker - spent 13 years in the VFA with North Melbourne between VFL games in 1908 and 1921

2. Ted Fisher - not sure what happened between his single game with StKilda (1907) and 10 years later playing 4 games with Richmond (1918) though he did serve in WW1

3. Bill Twomey - allowed 10 years to pass between his final stint with Collingwood (1922) and resuming with Hawthorn (1933) during which he pursed an athletic career (winning a Stawell Gift in 1924)

4. Harry Britter - had his career with Geelong (1914) and then Geelong (1924) interrupted for just under 10 years when he enlisted for WW1 in 1915

5. Bert Atkins - just under 10 years between his last game for South (1908) and resuming with the Saints (1918). Although his hiatus spanned WW1, he actually played with Essendon Association in the VFA from 1909-1917

6. Billy Walsh - played 3 games for Melbourne in 1934 and returned to the VFL in 1944 for a single game with Fitzroy. In between he played with Preston in the VFA

7. Ernest Cazaly - brother of our Roy Cazaly, had a two game VFL career with the Saints, his debut in 1910, and his second and final game in just over 9 years later 1919. Not sure what happened in between (except for WW1 & the StKilda football club did go into recess from 1916-1917).

I gave up at this point

Wow! You do have a good memory!

- - - Updated - - -

Fitzroy 2.27(39) lost to Geelong 19.8(122)

I've watched Swans games that felt like that. Must be maddening as a fan to see your team get thrashed in those circumstances.