Swans academy - purpose and results

[barracuda]

It's a nomination system. Just means there wasn't enough nominations for our academy players. They need to be nominated by atleast four clubs to get nominated. McGuire's has only one interest at heart n that's Collingwood n I think the majority of the public have finally worked that out. In regards to Jono Marsh it'd be tempting but we have a few that plays his hb role. Maybe if Aliir was traded, which I don't think he will be. Also depends how his mental state is because that's why he moved back home.

I think it is a combination of nominations, nominations from the AFL itself, and the TAC clubs are also able to nominate. The northern academies are out of the loop, and are no doubt happy to be. They don't want to have to compete for their players. The dark side to this is that academy players may feel they need to leave the academy and move to Melbourne to get a better chance. It is a difficult situation for the academies and the junior players.

At the end of the day if you are good enough you will get drafted whether you are in the academy or not. The Academy has everything you need to get good enough. The problem comes if you are marginal. If you are marginal in an academy you will not get drafted. If you are marginal in TAC you might get drafted. I think all of the swans academy players this year are marginal.

[Boddo]

I think it is a combination of nominations, nominations from the AFL itself, and the TAC clubs are also able to nominate. The northern academies are out of the loop, and are no doubt happy to be. They don't want to have to compete for their players. The dark side to this is that academy players may feel they need to leave the academy and move to Melbourne to get a better chance. It is a difficult situation for the academies and the junior players.

At the end of the day if you are good enough you will get drafted whether you are in the academy or not. The Academy has everything you need to get good enough. The problem comes if you are marginal. If you are marginal in an academy you will not get drafted. If you are marginal in TAC you might get drafted. I think all of the swans academy players this year are marginal.

Four nominations from clubs as outlined here in the second paragraph

Academy Guns invited to Combine - AFL Queensland

[Mug Punter]

I think it is a combination of nominations, nominations from the AFL itself, and the TAC clubs are also able to nominate. The northern academies are out of the loop, and are no doubt happy to be. They don't want to have to compete for their players. The dark side to this is that academy players may feel they need to leave the academy and move to Melbourne to get a better chance. It is a difficult situation for the academies and the junior players.

At the end of the day if you are good enough you will get drafted whether you are in the academy or not. The Academy has everything you need to get good enough. The problem comes if you are marginal. If you are marginal in an academy you will not get drafted. If you are marginal in TAC you might get drafted. I think all of the swans academy players this year are marginal.

Thanks Barra for your academy insights.

Your previous comments seemed to indicate that you saw Bell and Brown as the only draftable academy kids with Brown as an over-ager. Assuming the rookie list is just absorbed into the main list do you think these two will be Swans in 2018? Any other bolters?

I think the lack of draftable quality is telling - even with the massive investment by the Swans and the flow through of academy kids who have been in the system since Under 11s we still are struggling to develop the required quality.

I know we do have some examples in Mills and Heeney and I am not knocking the academy system but my question to you is: do you think in time we will get consistent draftable kids coming through or will we just get the freakish outliers like Isaac? Not sure if you have any insight on the relative talents of the groups coming through the academy in lower age groups

The worry I have with the Academy is that it costs so much to run but you just know that the moment it starts to have any sort of regular success that it will be torn down. It's not a Swans criticism but one of how the AFL works that they are happy to have it in operation and for us to fund it until it actually works. The state of football in Queensland probably shows decisively why the system is needed and hopefully as GWS come back to reality (and hopefully start investing in Western Sydney and ACT footy) they are also an advertisement of why the system is integral if we want four NSW/QLD AFL sides. Trying to get the academy as self funded as possible via sponsorship and the Swans Foundation would also make sense commercially.

[SeanM]

I think the Victorian sides getting Next Generation Academies reduces the likelihood that the NSW/QLD academies get shut down.

If the Victorian clubs get a few indigenous or multicultural talent through their academies over the next few seasons, then it means a smaller target on our back.

[707]

I think the Victorian sides getting Next Generation Academies reduces the likelihood that the NSW/QLD academies get shut down.

If the Victorian clubs get a few indigenous or multicultural talent through their academies over the next few seasons, then it means a smaller target on our back.

Exactly, they will get their first fruit this year and a notable haul next year. They can't complain about our academy given how little they have actually put into their draftees at present. Expect there to be southern/western squabbling if one or two regions start to produce in excess of others, the old zone problem revisited!

I think the changes made to the GWS zone have kept Eddie quiet lately and no one else has had first round talent for a while.

[Ludwig]

I know we do have some examples in Mills and Heeney and I am not knocking the academy system but my question to you is: do you think in time we will get consistent draftable kids coming through or will we just get the freakish outliers like Isaac?

It's sad that Mills and Heeney do look to be freakish outliers. The best of the rest, Robinson, BJ and Foote are nothing to get excited about. Jake Brown is the best of what I've seen this year in the NEAFL games, and looks more like a Robinson type and someone hot prospect. I haven't been that impressed with Bell, who's one the names that talked about. At least we will get Nick Blakey next year.

I don't know why the other academies seem to produce a much more regular flow of talent than ours.

[Boddo]

I think the Victorian sides getting Next Generation Academies reduces the likelihood that the NSW/QLD academies get shut down.

If the Victorian clubs get a few indigenous or multicultural talent through their academies over the next few seasons, then it means a smaller target on our back.

Ethan Penrith is the highest rated NGA player ATM. Here's a write about him

Knightmare's AFL draft wrap Ethan Penrith making strides

Next years best NGA talent ATM is Tarryn Thomas.

The worst that I think would happen is our academy rules would turn into the same as the NGA's. I think the biggest argument will come from the WA & SA clubs towards Victorian clubs as their indigenous NGA zones are legitimate remote zones like the rules say. The so called remote areas for Victorian clubs are rediculous as I've discussed previously.

[Mug Punter]

It's sad that Mills and Heeney do look to be freakish outliers. The best of the rest, Robinson, BJ and Foote are nothing to get excited about. Jake Brown is the best of what I've seen this year in the NEAFL games, and looks more like a Robinson type and someone hot prospect. I haven't been that impressed with Bell, who's one the names that talked about. At least we will get Nick Blakey next year.

I don't know why the other academies seem to produce a much more regular flow of talent than ours.

If we got the likes of an Isaac every year then the academy would last about five minutes. And rightly so as if we had such a consistent flow of talent then we would not be a developing football state. A case of being careful what we wish for - I think the club views the likes of Issac and Callum as a bonus we'll get every 2-3 years (i.e. every $4-6m) but the real value is in community engagement and getting regular high quality second and third rounders. And I think it will take a while yet before that happens.

Queensland has always been ahead of NSW in football development. Both in terms of players they deliver (think Dunstall and Reiwoldt) and their local comp. Not sure why it is but probably the long term migration of Victorians there has helped imbed AFL. GWS we all know the main reason (a flawed zone) but even with the Murray being trimmed off there should be more than enough for them in the Riverina and ACT with Western Sydney being the great untapped resource.

From the academy results this year you would think we are closing the gap.

Oddly enough the local Under 19s comp in Sydney is probably in its weakest most pathetic state for 30 years. Manly, who provided Wicks and Osborne to the Swans Academy side, have forfeited at times this year and the number of teams generally is just appalling - think it is about 15 sides which means we only have 300 kids between the ages of 17 and 19 playing competitive footy in a city of over 5 million people. Just goes to show that below the glitz and glamour of the AFL that the game in Sydney is still not really that strong. And the growth at senior level in the GWS zone in the period since their inception is negligible - not saying that is their responsibility but again it shows the hard nut they have to crack.

[barracuda]

If we got the likes of an Isaac every year then the academy would last about five minutes. And rightly so as if we had such a consistent flow of talent then we would not be a developing football state. A case of being careful what we wish for - I think the club views the likes of Issac and Callum as a bonus we'll get every 2-3 years (i.e. every $4-6m) but the real value is in community engagement and getting regular high quality second and third rounders. And I think it will take a while yet before that happens.

Queensland has always been ahead of NSW in football development. Both in terms of players they deliver (think Dunstall and Reiwoldt) and their local comp. Not sure why it is but probably the long term migration of Victorians there has helped imbed AFL. GWS we all know the main reason (a flawed zone) but even with the Murray being trimmed off there should be more than enough for them in the Riverina and ACT with Western Sydney being the great untapped resource.

From the academy results this year you would think we are closing the gap.

Oddly enough the local Under 19s comp in Sydney is probably in its weakest most pathetic state for 30 years. Manly, who provided Wicks and Osborne to the Swans Academy side, have forfeited at times this year and the number of teams generally is just appalling - think it is about 15 sides which means we only have 300 kids between the ages of 17 and 19 playing competitive footy in a city of over 5 million people. Just goes to show that below the glitz and glamour of the AFL that the game in Sydney is still not really that strong. And the growth at senior level in the GWS zone in the period since their inception is negligible - not saying that is their responsibility but again it shows the hard nut they have to crack.

Thanks Mug,

I think there are kids in the swans academy who are draftable but there are some structural and cultural issues that prevent them from being looked at by the 17 other clubs:

1. The other clubs don't want to compete with the swans points discount
2. The clubs feel safer recruiting a local Melbourne kid they know well via TAC or school footy than take a chance on a Sydney kid they don't really know
3. The Allies process is not working with obvious selection mistakes due to state rivalries. Eg this year Brisbane controlled the Allies so Sydney kids were overlooked.
4. The swans are not motivated to promote the kids to other clubs (understandable)
5. The Sydney junior comp is more participatory than high performance, so it is not a great breeding ground
6. The private schools comps are in their infancy so the high performance schools comp is absent and it is participatory.
7. The elite AFL talent group (that supported the Mills, Spargos, Heeneys and Blakeys) is not available to most talented Sydney kids. This program inserts the kids into the Victorian scene. For example Kevin Sheahan was quoted as spending loads of time with Spargo and de-briefing him on his GWS Div 2 games.

I could go on, but there are many reasons why good kids fall between the cracks in Sydney. It is getting better although the under 19 comp is in a sorry state. Mind you part of that is because so many are playing prems!

A superstar like Heeney will get drafted where ever he is. However the big question is around the fringe players. Assuming a Jake Brown is not drafted in Sydney, would he have been drafted if he had grown up in the Melbourne system? Looking at him play in NEAFL and his size and talents my gut feeling is that he would be drafted if he was in Melbourne. Likewise Dan Robinson took the decision to move to Melbourne for his final year at school. He got drafted. If he didn't go to Melbourne would he have been drafted?

[barracuda]

Thanks Barra for your academy insights.

Your previous comments seemed to indicate that you saw Bell and Brown as the only draftable academy kids with Brown as an over-ager. Assuming the rookie list is just absorbed into the main list do you think these two will be Swans in 2018? Any other bolters?

I think the lack of draftable quality is telling - even with the massive investment by the Swans and the flow through of academy kids who have been in the system since Under 11s we still are struggling to develop the required quality.

I know we do have some examples in Mills and Heeney and I am not knocking the academy system but my question to you is: do you think in time we will get consistent draftable kids coming through or will we just get the freakish outliers like Isaac? Not sure if you have any insight on the relative talents of the groups coming through the academy in lower age groups

The worry I have with the Academy is that it costs so much to run but you just know that the moment it starts to have any sort of regular success that it will be torn down. It's not a Swans criticism but one of how the AFL works that they are happy to have it in operation and for us to fund it until it actually works. The state of football in Queensland probably shows decisively why the system is needed and hopefully as GWS come back to reality (and hopefully start investing in Western Sydney and ACT footy) they are also an advertisement of why the system is integral if we want four NSW/QLD AFL sides. Trying to get the academy as self funded as possible via sponsorship and the Swans Foundation would also make sense commercially.

I think Bell played a pretty good Neafl game but the next one was quiet. Then he played Prems and was also quiet. I think he has broken his hand now and so is off the scene. I think there is a question mark over his consistency. He can be very fluent and skilled, but very often goes missing. Jake Brown has just returned after a lengthy injury. He played very well in the NEAFL and got the Rising Star for the week with 24 disposals and backed it up with a Best on Ground for St George in the prems. No doubt he will be going full tilt in the remaining games, and hoping to play the NEAFL finals for the swans, culminating with a late round draft.

Other players; Hardman has gone very quiet and does not seem to be getting into the best players for the Prems. He is very light and is actually pretty easy to stop. I think there might be a question mark over his ability to outwork elite defenders. Others like Rogers and Wicks have rotated out of the NEAFL. I know these kids are pretty brainy and so would probably be more focussed on HSC at this time.

I think the State Combine invites will give the best indication as to who the clubs are interested in.

[Steve]

It's sad that Mills and Heeney do look to be freakish outliers. The best of the rest, Robinson, BJ and Foote are nothing to get excited about. Jake Brown is the best of what I've seen this year in the NEAFL games, and looks more like a Robinson type and someone hot prospect. I haven't been that impressed with Bell, who's one the names that talked about. At least we will get Nick Blakey next year.

I don't know why the other academies seem to produce a much more regular flow of talent than ours.

If a Heeney or Mills comes along once every 10 years, it is probably worth the investment in the academy (albeit that is a considerable cost, and we do pay 'market value', less a slight discount, in terms of acquiring them in the draft).

I've always automatically supported the academy concept, but from a business perspective you could understand it being seriously questioned into the future. There are definite wider benefits to the game (eg. brand recognition, development and pathway to stronger local comps etc), but if the pipeline is as shallow as it has been, in all honesty we'd be better just doing a GWS and having a minimal setup.

The Heeneys and Mills will always be identified one way or another and it be clear they are an elite talent from an early age, so rather than absorb them into a large program, in all seriousness we'd actually be better just allocating a full-time resource to work solely with the individual as a 'personal coach' from, say, 14-17.

That won't happen, but you'd have to say that our academy didn't 'make' either of those guys into the talents they are - rather it was a system they could be nurtured within to guarantee their pathway onto our list.

[Boddo]

If a Heeney or Mills comes along once every 10 years, it is probably worth the investment in the academy (albeit that is a considerable cost, and we do pay 'market value', less a slight discount, in terms of acquiring them in the draft).

I've always automatically supported the academy concept, but from a business perspective you could understand it being seriously questioned into the future. There are definite wider benefits to the game (eg. brand recognition, development and pathway to stronger local comps etc), but if the pipeline is as shallow as it has been, in all honesty we'd be better just doing a GWS and having a minimal setup.

The Heeneys and Mills will always be identified one way or another and it be clear they are an elite talent from an early age, so rather than absorb them into a large program, in all seriousness we'd actually be better just allocating a full-time resource to work solely with the individual as a 'personal coach' from, say, 14-17.

That won't happen, but you'd have to say that our academy didn't 'make' either of those guys into the talents they are - rather it was a system they could be nurtured within to guarantee their pathway onto our list.

Sorry what cancels out everything you've said is that without the academy they are not playing Australian rules footy. They more than likely would have been identified by league, union or soccer academies & ended up taking one of their offers. Good example is Bell I have read somewhere that he could have been in a soccer academy but chose Aussie rules as we had an academy n he could possibly stay in nsw if good enough. The scenario your talking about is similar to the old nsw scholarship system n it was a dismal failure. You can't just try n cherry pick top end talent without laying a good foundation in junior footy.

[S.S. Bleeder]

Sorry what cancels out everything you've said is that without the academy they are not playing Australian rules footy. They more than likely would have been identified by league, union or soccer academies & ended up taking one of their offers. Good example is Bell I have read somewhere that he could have been in a soccer academy but chose Aussie rules as we had an academy n he could possibly stay in nsw if good enough. The scenario your talking about is similar to the old nsw scholarship system n it was a dismal failure. You can't just try n cherry pick top end talent without laying a good foundation in junior footy.

Why not? It seems to working alright for GWS.

[Mug Punter]

Sorry what cancels out everything you've said is that without the academy they are not playing Australian rules footy. They more than likely would have been identified by league, union or soccer academies & ended up taking one of their offers. Good example is Bell I have read somewhere that he could have been in a soccer academy but chose Aussie rules as we had an academy n he could possibly stay in nsw if good enough. The scenario your talking about is similar to the old nsw scholarship system n it was a dismal failure. You can't just try n cherry pick top end talent without laying a good foundation in junior footy.

Spot on.

The academy is a generational investment by the Swans from the bottom up but one that is ultimately designed to identify and develop elite talent To do so it obviously needs to cast a wide net and develop overall participation rates as is happening with the GPS/CAS school AFL programmes.

Most AFL players would be talented in many sports and in Sydney there is a wider choice than in non football states and still a bias towards those sports. So there really is a talent war that the AFL is fighting here in Sydney. And the pathway to the Swans, being able to play for their home state club, should they be good enough is a critical part of the development programme they are trying to implement via the Academy

[Mug Punter]

Why not? It seems to working alright for GWS.

To the contrary the "success" of GWS has nothing at all to do with junior footy at all.

Their position is solely due to their draft concessions and their shrewd list management to date. But that gravy train is about to come to a halt and I believe that without a real commitment to junior footy they will struggle long term and they will need to take a similar approach academy wise that the other three clubs have.

The lack of depth in their list as evidenced by their NEAFL position, their cultural issues and their impending salary cap squeeze all point to some serious growing pains there. They're still my bet to win the flag this year but it will be interesting to see how they sit in five years time.