#AFL Round 4 Swans vs Bulldogs Thur 25-Jun at SCG #AFLSwansDogs

[Ralph Dawg]

We need a dominant midfielder who can keep us in the contest. JPK is still good but is on the wrong side of the hill. Parker is more a wing man than a top gun. None of our younger brigade look like being potential superstars. They need a leader and we need to recruit one.
Look at what guys like Neale, Bont, Cripps, Fyffe, Dusty and now Rowell consistently do. Our issue is at the contest and has been for the last 2-3 years. Thursday night was a good example in that we actually dominated the hit outs (including many to advantage) yet still got dominated on ball.

[Kafka's Ghost]

We need a dominant midfielder who can keep us in the contest. JPK is still good but is on the wrong side of the hill. Parker is more a wing man than a top gun. None of our younger brigade look like being potential superstars. They need a leader and we need to recruit one.
Look at what guys like Neale, Bont, Cripps, Fyffe, Dusty and now Rowell consistently do. Our issue is at the contest and has been for the last 2-3 years. Thursday night was a good example in that we actually dominated the hit outs (including many to advantage) yet still got dominated on ball.

I don’t agree we were dominated at the clearances, as they were almost even, but given our ruck dominance we should have really cleaned up. Inside 50s were even, marks inside 50 were even, which suggests around the ground we held our own, despite a shocking first quarter. Our conversion on the other hand has been poor all year. It kept North in the game the week before, and cost us any chance last Thursday. We missed some absolute sitters, especially in the third quarter when we dominated the play and possession.

[Ludwig]

We need a dominant midfielder who can keep us in the contest. JPK is still good but is on the wrong side of the hill. Parker is more a wing man than a top gun. None of our younger brigade look like being potential superstars. They need a leader and we need to recruit one.
Look at what guys like Neale, Bont, Cripps, Fyffe, Dusty and now Rowell consistently do. Our issue is at the contest and has been for the last 2-3 years. Thursday night was a good example in that we actually dominated the hit outs (including many to advantage) yet still got dominated on ball.

I disagree with you that Parker is not a top gun. He's one of the best mids in the league.

All those star players you named, except Neale, are players who were drafted and still with their original clubs. Gun midfielders don't come cheap and we still have a heavy TPP burden with Buddy, so we need to find a solution with the players already on our list. Maybe Mills will make a permanent move to the midfield and become that gun. Rowbottom is developing nicely and Warner is an inside mid with a lot of promise. We just need to be patient as we have a plethora of good draft picks who are 1st to 3rd year players.

[MattW]

We need a dominant midfielder who can keep us in the contest. JPK is still good but is on the wrong side of the hill. Parker is more a wing man than a top gun. None of our younger brigade look like being potential superstars. They need a leader and we need to recruit one.
Look at what guys like Neale, Bont, Cripps, Fyffe, Dusty and now Rowell consistently do. Our issue is at the contest and has been for the last 2-3 years. Thursday night was a good example in that we actually dominated the hit outs (including many to advantage) yet still got dominated on ball.

Strongly disagree re Parker. He's got the most contested possessions and most clearances in the competition this year, and is fourth in total possessions. To your point, he had more contested possessions than anyone on the ground against the Dogs. He's underrated.

I don't think the centre of midfield is the problem. We're fifth in contested possessions, second in clearances, fifth in inside 50s and first in tackles. Parker and Kennedy are playing well, Florent has most games, Rowbottom is improving. Looks like we're trying Mills.

The problem is at either end of the ground, as John said in the post match presser.

Particularly defence. I can't find a stat for it, but suggest we'd be near league bottom in opponent efficiency inside forward 50 (can anyone find that stat?). That bums me out because we bring that on ourselves by continually selecting an undersized defence. We haven't replaced Smith, Shaw, Grundy or Richards. Of the defenders who played on Thursday, Rampe is the only one you'd rely on to win the majority of his one-on-ones (that includes Mills).

The defence needs a revamp. We seem to have decided to play McCartin forward this year, so we should bring in Melican or Brand or both (playing Aliir in the middle more) while we wait for O'Connor and Gould. I think we should give Stoddart or Ling a good go in that rebounding defender role - I don't trust either O'Riordan or Fox in that role and don't think either have sufficient improvement in them.

[TheBloods]

I have to agree with Ralph Dawg that there doesn't appear to be a future superstar in our ranks. Taranto, McCluggage, Worpel, Smith, Walsh, Rowell... look at what these kids have done in their first years, first few games even. While we keep finding excuses for why Rowbottom, Florent etc aren't dominating yet. Perhaps they just never will? There is nothing wrong with that, we need perfectly good midfielders if we want to win clearances and contests from the stoppages. But if they are who we are pinning the hopes of our midfield on, then we are in for a world of hurt.

[Ralph Dawg]

I don’t agree we were dominated at the clearances, as they were almost even, but given our ruck dominance we should have really cleaned up. Inside 50s were even, marks inside 50 were even, which suggests around the ground we held our own, despite a shocking first quarter. Our conversion on the other hand has been poor all year. It kept North in the game the week before, and cost us any chance last Thursday. We missed some absolute sitters, especially in the third quarter when we dominated the play and possession.

You have illustrated my point in disagreeing with me. We won the hit outs almost 3 to 1 yet lost the clearances 31-27. Watching the game (and many others over the last few years), we also struggle with the quality of our clearances. All other stats are pretty even, but again highlights the quality of the ball we win. This comes back to how clean our mids are on both inside and outside. The reality is, our group is constantly under intense pressure, a sign to me that we lack speed and poise at the ball. My point is a Lachie Neale type can change that. Just look at what Bont did to us on Thursday night.

Re Parker, no disrespect to him. He is a very good player but he's not in my opinion, quite in the top echelon.

[Ludwig]

It's fine to say that we need to add a gun midfielder to our list, but how do we go about doing that? Who do we target, realistically. How do we fit the player into our salary cap? What do we give up for that player in a trade.

The last 3 years we drafted 7 midfielders: Ling, Stoddart, Blakey, Rowbottom, McInerney, Stephens and Warner. We also added Bell and Wicks from as rookie academy picks. It's not like our list managers aren't trying.

** An interesting point regarding elite players: Over the past 5 years, JPK and Parker are tied for 7th most Brownlow votes with 77. So at least by this highly regarded measurement of quality, there are only 6 players in the league who are better. I think that qualifies both as being Elite with a big 'E'.

[Ralph Dawg]

It's fine to say that we need to add a gun midfielder to our list, but how do we go about doing that? Who do we target, realistically. How do we fit the player into our salary cap? What do we give up for that player in a trade.

The last 3 years we drafted 7 midfielders: Ling, Stoddart, Blakey, Rowbottom, McInerney, Stephens and Warner. We also added Bell and Wicks from as rookie academy picks. It's not like our list managers aren't trying.

Maybe have a look at the circumstances of Neale moving from Freo to Lions for some clues. Or come last and draft a gun like Rowell. Or do a Buddy like deal. It can be done but I agree with you that it's not easy.

[Ludwig]

Maybe have a look at the circumstances of Neale moving from Freo to Lions for some clues. Or come last and draft a gun like Rowell. Or do a Buddy like deal. It can be done but I agree with you that it's not easy.

There's a downside to almost everything. You could say that we did 2 Buddy deals, with Tippett being the other one, and because of that we couldn't afford to kept Tom Mitchell. WCE gave up 2 first and 2 second round picks for Tim Kelly, but he hasn't looked the player this year. Neale cost Brisbane a pick 6 and around a mid second rounder in 2018; Ben King went pick and Bailey Smith went pick 7. Maybe either one will be a better value over time given the age difference.

HPN valued the Tim Kelly, Lachie Neale and Brad Hill trades big value losers for the clubs acquiring the player.

I think our list management has been been very good. We just need to recognise that we are in a transition, there are 17 other clubs trying to do the best they can as well. It will be some time before we can evaluate this recent period in rebuilding the team.

The loss of Buddy, Reid and Naismith make the transition look worse than it is, because that's a big loss of talent on the field right now that can't be replaced.

[MattW]

Maybe have a look at the circumstances of Neale moving from Freo to Lions for some clues. Or come last and draft a gun like Rowell. Or do a Buddy like deal. It can be done but I agree with you that it's not easy.

There's a downside to almost everything. You could say that we did 2 Buddy deals, with Tippett being the other one, and because of that we couldn't afford to kept Tom Mitchell. WCE gave up 2 first and 2 second round picks for Tim Kelly, but he hasn't looked the player this year. Neale cost Brisbane a pick 6 and around a mid second rounder in 2018; Ben King went pick and Bailey Smith went pick 7. Maybe either one will be a better value over time given the age difference.

HPN valued the Tim Kelly, Lachie Neale and Brad Hill trades big value losers for the clubs acquiring the player.

I think our list management has been been very good. We just need to recognise that we are in a transition, there are 17 other clubs trying to do the best they can as well. It will be some time before we can evaluate this recent period in rebuilding the team.

The loss of Buddy, Reid and Naismith make the transition look worse than it is, because that's a big loss of talent on the field right now that can't be replaced.

Yep, good post.

[Blood Fever]

Yep, good post.

+1. We Have been spoilt as supporters arguably since 1996. Missed the finals 4 times in that period? Perspective needed. And patience.

[Kafka's Ghost]

+1. We Have been spoilt as supporters arguably since 1996. Missed the finals 4 times in that period? Perspective needed. And patience.

Hear, hear, to both posts.

[Nico]

It's fine to say that we need to add a gun midfielder to our list, but how do we go about doing that? Who do we target, realistically. How do we fit the player into our salary cap? What do we give up for that player in a trade.

The last 3 years we drafted 7 midfielders: Ling, Stoddart, Blakey, Rowbottom, McInerney, Stephens and Warner. We also added Bell and Wicks from as rookie academy picks. It's not like our list managers aren't trying.

** An interesting point regarding elite players: Over the past 5 years, JPK and Parker are tied for 7th most Brownlow votes with 77. So at least by this highly regarded measurement of quality, there are only 6 players in the league who are better. I think that qualifies both as being Elite with a big 'E'.

I think the 2 boys in the coming draft might give us the much needed grunt in the guts. IIRC Campbell was BOG in the Rising Stars exhibition match. Lets see how Mills goes this week in the middle. He found plenty of the pill in the second half.

[Ruck'n'Roll]

These posts on trading, are better thought out than some on the actual 2020 trading/drafting thread - could the be moved?

I particularly agree with Ludwig too, there are repercussions to every list management action.
Everyone can see the reward, but the risk - some seems to attract less consideration.

We trust our club to look at both - but the history of VFL/AFL list management does suggest that sometimes clubs act in ways that suggest they have not done so.
Clubs can act like a pathological impulse shopper with a new credit card.

Richmond over John Pitura, they were obsessed with getting him and gave away too much to get him.
Essendon with Geof Raines, the club brought in a highly paid import, destroyed team harmony and had to give him away after a season.
Collingwood with Barry Mitchell, gave him a huge salary but according to Barry they had no idea what sort of player he was, shunted after a season.

The most common one these days, are where a club convince themselves they're in the "premiership window" - recruit short term and the club takes years to recover.

[Bexl]

I think the 2 boys in the coming draft might give us the much needed grunt in the guts. IIRC Campbell was BOG in the Rising Stars exhibition match. Lets see how Mills goes this week in the middle. He found plenty of the pill in the second half.

IF......... he plays in the middle?