Match Thread. Swans v Hawthorn

[O'Reilly Boy]

Sorry not to have chimed in—I've been having trouble with my password and multiple devices.
I am a bit late to the party, but have been thinking a lot about what we saw on Friday night.
I sat, high in the O'Reilly Stand with my daughter, the 13 year fullback who was sporting her new Dane Rampe haircut.
I decided to watch Rowbottom very closely all night, and increasingly found myself moving towards our controversial friend's position. Now, it may be that he is playing to instructions, in which case the game plan involved him trying (usually not terribly successfully) to hold opponents out of centre bounces, arriving late to contests, standing a step and a half away, and, once the whistle blew, grimacing and bracing his hands on his knees. I was struck by how low energy he seemed, and his apparent reluctance, all night, to take the game on. I was also appalled by his disposals, and how easily his tackles were broken.
I then went back and looked at some of the footage of his game before being recruited, and saw a great deal of explosive energy and assertiveness.
Now, it may be fatigue, second season blues, or he may be a bit undersized, but I think that he is a shadow of the player in those highlight packages. And I realise that the stats offer a counterargument, as many here have pointed out. But I was disappointed by his game, and increasingly frustrated as the evening wore on. Horse rang the changes late (too late?) in the game, putting Ollie in the centre square (I thought he did okay, but again, seemed to have different riding orders—much more head over the ball), and then George, perhaps an acknowledgement that we were not getting enough out of the middle (I note that the stats suggested that we did well in clearances, but it certainly didn't feel like that at the ground—we did better in the first 15 minutes, before it dropped off and we started being slaughtered in the middle).
I remember years ago reading an interview with Ricky Ponting, who explained that in every moment of play, whether he was batting, fielding in the covers, whether or not he was directly involved in the play, he was seeking to impose his will on the game. That's the quality I saw missing in our boys across the field on Friday; the Hawks had that quality in abundance.
Such a disappointing missed opportunity to secure a position on the ladder, but probably a reasonable indication of where the team is.

[Nico]

OB, you mentioned he was trying to hold opponents at centre bounces. I have been a critic over a number of years of our poor centre clearance work. Over that time I had noticed we were more intent on holding and blocking opponents rather than make beeline for the footy. It has been much better this year but the last 2 games we have been slaughtered out of the centre, and old habits/techniques have resurfaced.

If you are trying to block you are not focused on the footy and that means a delay in contesting the ball. Also in the majority of centre ruck contests the ball falls at the feet of the ruckmen, yet our players seem to be nowhere near that space. I have noticed we are now setting up on the defensive side of the centre square and the ball is not going there. If Hickey is winning the contest or trying to take the ball from the air we should have at least one player on the offensive side.

[Ludwig]

I decided to watch Rowbottom very closely all night, and increasingly found myself moving towards our controversial friend's position. Now, it may be that he is playing to instructions, in which case the game plan involved him trying (usually not terribly successfully) to hold opponents out of centre bounces, arriving late to contests, standing a step and a half away, and, once the whistle blew, grimacing and bracing his hands on his knees. I was struck by how low energy he seemed, and his apparent reluctance, all night, to take the game on. I was also appalled by his disposals, and how easily his tackles were broken.
I then went back and looked at some of the footage of his game before being recruited, and saw a great deal of explosive energy and assertiveness.
Now, it may be fatigue, second season blues, or he may be a bit undersized, but I think that he is a shadow of the player in those highlight packages. And I realise that the stats offer a counterargument, as many here have pointed out. But I was disappointed by his game, and increasingly frustrated as the evening wore on.

I agree with you on Rowbottom's performance on Friday, but I find that patience is required when evaluating players and their long-term prospects. Usually a player can reach his best performance levels when fit and training well for a period of time. We should remember that RB had an early season injury and sometimes it can put a damper on the rest of the season, as the body is constantly trying to catch up for time lost in rehab. I wouldn't be surprised if he had a subpar season, but bounces back next year if all goes well in the lead up to the 2022 season.

Just for an example, and there are many more I could give, both Florent and Hayward have taken a lot of flack during their time at the Swans, but now are putting together solid performances week in, week out. They will have their bad games, but overall, if they can keep healthy, they should continue to improve and become consistent performers over the journey.

[TheBloods]

Sorry not to have chimed in—I've been having trouble with my password and multiple devices.
I am a bit late to the party, but have been thinking a lot about what we saw on Friday night.
I sat, high in the O'Reilly Stand with my daughter, the 13 year fullback who was sporting her new Dane Rampe haircut.
I decided to watch Rowbottom very closely all night, and increasingly found myself moving towards our controversial friend's position. Now, it may be that he is playing to instructions, in which case the game plan involved him trying (usually not terribly successfully) to hold opponents out of centre bounces, arriving late to contests, standing a step and a half away, and, once the whistle blew, grimacing and bracing his hands on his knees. I was struck by how low energy he seemed, and his apparent reluctance, all night, to take the game on. I was also appalled by his disposals, and how easily his tackles were broken.
I then went back and looked at some of the footage of his game before being recruited, and saw a great deal of explosive energy and assertiveness.
Now, it may be fatigue, second season blues, or he may be a bit undersized, but I think that he is a shadow of the player in those highlight packages. And I realise that the stats offer a counterargument, as many here have pointed out. But I was disappointed by his game, and increasingly frustrated as the evening wore on. Horse rang the changes late (too late?) in the game, putting Ollie in the centre square (I thought he did okay, but again, seemed to have different riding orders—much more head over the ball), and then George, perhaps an acknowledgement that we were not getting enough out of the middle (I note that the stats suggested that we did well in clearances, but it certainly didn't feel like that at the ground—we did better in the first 15 minutes, before it dropped off and we started being slaughtered in the middle).
I remember years ago reading an interview with Ricky Ponting, who explained that in every moment of play, whether he was batting, fielding in the covers, whether or not he was directly involved in the play, he was seeking to impose his will on the game. That's the quality I saw missing in our boys across the field on Friday; the Hawks had that quality in abundance.
Such a disappointing missed opportunity to secure a position on the ladder, but probably a reasonable indication of where the team is.

Some cant take the leap from junior talent to AFL star and theres no shame in that. He's an average player who can still have a role in the team if used correctly, hes a strong tackler and has good body work at times which would make him an excellent defender. Maybe he replaces Fox or Hewett. But we are lacking a spark in the midfield and we are kidding ourselves if we think he is it , give his midfield minutes to Chad and Florent instead, then Gulden, Stephens etc next year

By the way im glad someone else mentioned the constant hands on knees. It is not a good look when you are side by side with your opponent at a stoppage and you are hunched over sucking in the big ones looking like you would rather be anywhere else. Not lazy but a sign that you lack the competitiveness at the contest and hunger for the next ball to be thrown up. Have said his body language on field has stunk for ages now and been howled at, even someone on here who knows him personally said hes too passive

[KTigers]

I would have thought it is totally unrealistic to expect these young (first & second year) players to be able to play consistently high
(or even good) standard games week-in, week-out. This hasn't occurred at any club anywhere in the history of the game, so why
should it occur at the Sydney Swans in 2021? Look at our friends out west. Their crop of younger players go in and out of the team
like yo-yo's too. It's the same at all the clubs. It's almost impossible for 19 year olds and 20 year olds to rack up 15 touches a game
week-in, week-out.
Yep, some of them look spent at the moment. But if resting by putting your hands on your knees is an indicator that you've
had it, then someone should tell Luke Parker. It's nigh on impossible to get onto an AFL list and there are no "dregs" anywhere in
AFL level footy. All of these boys can play. It's just totally unrealistic to expect them to still be going deep into the last quarter like
a JPK or a Pendlebury or a Dangerfield.

[O'Reilly Boy]

I would have thought it is totally unrealistic to expect these young (first & second year) players to be able to play consistently high
(or even good) standard games week-in, week-out. This hasn't occurred at any club anywhere in the history of the game, so why
should it occur at the Sydney Swans in 2021? Look at our friends out west. Their crop of younger players go in and out of the team
like yo-yo's too. It's the same at all the clubs. It's almost impossible for 19 year olds and 20 year olds to rack up 15 touches a game
week-in, week-out.
Yep, some of them look spent at the moment. But if resting by putting your hands on your knees is an indicator that you've
had it, then someone should tell Luke Parker. It's nigh on impossible to get onto an AFL list and there are no "dregs" anywhere in
AFL level footy. All of these boys can play. It's just totally unrealistic to expect them to still be going deep into the last quarter like
a JPK or a Pendlebury or a Dangerfield.

Just to be really clear: I'm not jumping on the 'Rowbottom is average' bandwagon, and I take both Ludwig's and KTigers' points. But his game was poor, and I wonder about selection policies/practices. Certainly Florent and Hayward have benefitted from continuity of selection, an opportunity not extended to Stephens. Others stay in the team beyond a point of diminishing returns—Blakey and, I am now thinking, Rowbottom. But then again, I'm only seeing a partial picture, of course.

[i'm-uninformed2]

My curiousity on Rowbottom is not what sort of player he can become, which is very good; but how much the knee is bothering him still.

Last year, he showed a fairly dynamic element to his game, with not so much pure speed but both an ability to get up and down the ground, as well as being one of those rare players you see both accelerate into and out of contests.

A bit of that is absent right now, or at least he's not doing it consistently. Which makes me wonder how much training he's doing through the week, and how much the coaches have tailored his role for now to more of a defensive one to match any physical limitations.

It may just be a temporary thing and I'm far more confident that one or two notable exceptions about his long-term capacity to be part of a terrific midfield mix.

[Ludwig]

I wonder about selection policies/practices. Certainly Florent and Hayward have benefitted from continuity of selection, an opportunity not extended to Stephens. Others stay in the team beyond a point of diminishing returns—Blakey and, I am now thinking, Rowbottom. But then again, I'm only seeing a partial picture, of course.

I think this point about selection policy is the important one you make. I've been wondering about both selections and non selections many times when we have nearly a full list to choose from. It often seems that the choices are nether helping those selected nor those not selected.

I'm hesitant to question the selectors when they have so much more information regarding how particular players are going and what targets have been set for them regarding selection. That aside, some of the choices seem odd. The non selection of Brand, playing Heeney when he's injured, perhaps bringing back Fox too soon, and there is a case to answer for the handling of RB as well.

[O'Reilly Boy]

My curiousity on Rowbottom is not what sort of player he can become, which is very good; but how much the knee is bothering him still.

Last year, he showed a fairly dynamic element to his game, with not so much pure speed but both an ability to get up and down the ground, as well as being one of those rare players you see both accelerate into and out of contests.

A bit of that is absent right now, or at least he's not doing it consistently. Which makes me wonder how much training he's doing through the week, and how much the coaches have tailored his role for now to more of a defensive one to match any physical limitations.

It may just be a temporary thing and I'm far more confident that one or two notable exceptions about his long-term capacity to be part of a terrific midfield mix.

Good comments.
Unfortunately tailoring a defensive game doesn't really help if he's carrying an injury. He certainly was positioning defensively at centre bounces, initially holding off a player, and then moving back to 6 o'clock. When the mids are on song, this is the link position to move the ball laterally to a wing or HBF to take off; when the ball goes the other way, it commands the corridor. Unfortunately Hawthorn runners were able to take him on and either run straight over him, breaking the tackle, or fend him off. They seemed to be increasingly confident as the game progressed to simply run at him, which cannot be great for his confidence.

[TheBloods]

I would have thought it is totally unrealistic to expect these young (first & second year) players to be able to play consistently high
(or even good) standard games week-in, week-out. This hasn't occurred at any club anywhere in the history of the game, so why
should it occur at the Sydney Swans in 2021? Look at our friends out west. Their crop of younger players go in and out of the team
like yo-yo's too. It's the same at all the clubs. It's almost impossible for 19 year olds and 20 year olds to rack up 15 touches a game
week-in, week-out.
Yep, some of them look spent at the moment. But if resting by putting your hands on your knees is an indicator that you've
had it, then someone should tell Luke Parker. It's nigh on impossible to get onto an AFL list and there are no "dregs" anywhere in
AFL level footy. All of these boys can play. It's just totally unrealistic to expect them to still be going deep into the last quarter like
a JPK or a Pendlebury or a Dangerfield.

Im not expecting great games from him every week. One would do. He is 37 games into his career now and not one of them have been great. Has never even had over 25 touches which should be a achievable at least once or twice if your an inside mid. Never had a coaches vote, never had a Rising star nomination , most outside the swans fans wouldnt know who he is

These arent everything but they are usually a good indication of what a player can become . Max king for example wont kick bags every week but has had a few here and there that suggest he could be a great forward. Noah anderson was quiet on the weekend but has had some great games to suggest what sort of a player he'll be. We havent seen anything of that sort from Rowbottom yet , just moments here and there. The most concerning part as i mentioned is that he was not prolific as a junior either , his record shows he was only averaging 21 disposals as an inside mid so not great signs that we can expect him to become a dominant player

[barry]

Rowbottom's problem is his physical strength. His game style is of a strong inside midfielder (ala Joey Kennedy), which he can probably get away with in juniors and reserve comps. But he is getting exposed at senior level. In modern footy, every time he gets caught with the ball while trying to fend off a tackle, usually ends up with the opposition getting a shot on goal.

Thats not to say he's not in our best 22, but what he needs to do is get the strength of a tom mitchel and then his game will take off. In a few years time, he could be a very good player.
Joey Kennedy is kind of the same. He was doing nothing at Hawthorn until we got him at age 22, and his body developed into his footy style and he went off. Rowy is only 20.
Give him 2 more years.

[bandwagon]

I think this point about selection policy is the important one you make. I've been wondering about both selections and non selections many times when we have nearly a full list to choose from. It often seems that the choices are nether helping those selected nor those not selected.

I'm hesitant to question the selectors when they have so much more information regarding how particular players are going and what targets have been set for them regarding selection. That aside, some of the choices seem odd. The non selection of Brand, playing Heeney when he's injured, perhaps bringing back Fox too soon, and there is a case to answer for the handling of RB as well.

I think our depth in midfielders isn't great. Say that Rowbottom is carrying an injury which is limiting his effectiveness, who is the obvious replacement? There would be doubts that Taylor, Gray, Clarke etc are able to play at the required level. Gulden, Campbell & Warner are injured, and Blakey is out of form, and Stephens hasn't yet the frame to play in the centre square. You could move Hewett, but that leaves us with a less dynamic centre square combination.

Of course, when you do have a player of appropriate experience & physical ability playing well in the VFL (Brand), I have no idea why he would not be selected.

[TheBloods]

I think our depth in midfielders isn't great. Say that Rowbottom is carrying an injury which is limiting his effectiveness, who is the obvious replacement? There would be doubts that Taylor, Gray, Clarke etc are able to play at the required level. Gulden, Campbell & Warner are injured, and Blakey is out of form, and Stephens hasn't yet the frame to play in the centre square. You could move Hewett, but that leaves us with a less dynamic centre square combination.

Of course, when you do have a player of appropriate experience & physical ability playing well in the VFL (Brand), I have no idea why he would not be selected.

How would hewett be any less dynamic at centre square than rowbottom ? They are pretty much the same player just five years apart!

[bandwagon]

How would hewett be any less dynamic at centre square than rowbottom ? They are pretty much the same player just five years apart!

That has some truth this year, however last year Rowbottom earned credit (in my eyes) for his energetic play. I'd hope he can recapture that form, and I'd expect him to exceed that within the next five years. However even if he plateaus at Hewett's level, that is still a decent B-grade player. Every team has them, even champion teams.

[Ralph Dawg]

Errol, Campbell, Wicks, Chad and Hickey making such amazing starts to 2021 was equivalent to adding 5 A to B grade players to our roster. Of course in this context we were able to play such an aggressive and effective style as we now had the skill to pull it off.

With their subsequent reduction in output (except Hickey although even he had his colours lowered on Friday), coupled with injuries, we have essentially come back to the same skill level as last year, hence the return to old the old style of play and habits. We can only play whatever style is comparable to our current form.

Hopefully this break will give the young guys (and Hick) a chance to recharge their batteries and re-energize. Because it's going to be through our youngsters the team will ultimately improve, not the guys who have been fighting the good fight over the last couple of seasons.