Rnd 15 Pre-Match Thread, vs St Kilda

[Blood Fever]

I think with Kennedy's absence (and form drop) and Mills needing to play some more minutes in defence the last few weeks, having another hard nut older midfielder like Clarke in the seniors could help us. I wouldn't be that upset if Clarke got a crack at the seniors. He runs hard, racks up numbers, can tag and as you point out - has improved his disposal efficiency.

However its' hard to see who he'd replace in the team, Rowbottom would be the most obvious but he's been good this year (careful not to open a can of worms here). Another option would be Florent who played well against the Dees but whilst his role would be different to Clarke's, has definitely not progressed as many of us here would of hoped. Finally, he could come in for Wicks, with Papley to spend more time up forward and less in the middle.

Went to the game v Melbourne. Thought Florent was great down back, especially when game was on the line.

[Mountain Man]

"Team Outs : Coaching: Longmire, can never see a veteran is past it and keeps playing them over younger players
: Jake Lloyd; if he didn't take a few kick in, would he have had zero possessions? Really drop off a cliff
: COR, love the guy, but he isn't an AFL players, too many mistakes and missed tackles: give Fox an extended period
: Wicks: he stood still but didn't see the Port players moving into space too mark around him, too many mistakes and missed tackles

Team In : Amartey, played really well against Melbourne, but was dropped
: Fox, he can play, we don't use him, why
: Stephens, why not, he must be hungry.
: Gould, for gods sake, give him a go! didn't we trade up to get him! He would be better than Lloyd"

4 Outs and 4 Ins

Who gets the coaching gig replacing Longmire?

[Ludwig]

Most teams this year have struggled with stopping momentum and we have been very consistently inconsistent in this aspect. I think it has to do with our midfield and how well they create numbers in our defensive half when the opposition get their hands on the footy. We need players like Gulden and JMac the ones who are blessed with endurance to come and help out as well as Mills for the obvious reasons. The moment it is one on one we struggle which is so different than our bygone era. The way we play at the back, we don’t want Paddy to play on a talls. And Rampe is up and down with how he plays the talls depending on the pressure on the kicker in the midfield.
Wicks is the extra number in the midfield and pressure tackler in the forward half and he seems to not bring this at all to the table through this year. If the pressure on halfbacks is not good we get exposed in defensive half due to how fast it comes there. I reckon we get our selections and our pressure player composition right we would be fine.
Essendon stopped Jack sinclair and Brad Hill well and they got their pressure in the midfield right. Saints are a quality side all across the park with the 3 m marking Max King. If we let them kick to his advantage he may kick a bag on us. And so will Paddy Ryder
Out - Ladhams, Wicks, C Oriordan
In - Hickey, Ronke, Fox

Very astute comments. There's a crescendo effect that follows from not stopping the opposition halfbacks. Once the play goes on for awhile they drift forward and find space just inside our defensive zone and create scoring opportunities. So we need to work on shutting down these type of players, as you have noted that Essendon did on Hill and Sinclair.

Your remarks on the midfielders helping out in defence is also something we need to work on. We are having so many problems once the ball hits the ground. We seem to be second to the ball too often and the opposition always have loose players around to shark the ball and snap a goal. Rowbottom, Warner and Gulden all need to do more in our defensive zone. I think it has more to do with training and experience than ability. Even though I've recommended moving Lloyd out of defence, he does a lot to clean up the mess for us. Perhaps we should look to making Ollie a permanent part of the defence with a look toward building a synergy down the road, Blood Fever might agree with this one too.

I think Paddy needs to play a true KPD role. Rampe can't handle it. Maybe Tom goes to King an Paddy take the resting ruckman, a tall task for both. Rampe should go one on one with Membrey, who has a big tank and will run him up and down the ground. I don't know how Gould would go in this sort of a setup. He could try to play the role that Mills has been filling in when things go sour.

[Aaron]

The thread titled Round 13 while this will be actually a Round 15 match.
Horse was bold enough to play ROK in the reserves in his final years. He is after a whole team balance.

[Captain]

Campbell absolutely must come in this week. Should never have been dropped in the first place.

In: Fox, Hickey, Campbell, Ronke
Out: COR, Wicks, Ladhams, Lloyd

[Nico]

Went to the game v Melbourne. Thought Florent was great down back, especially when game was on the line.

So they bring back an unfit Cunningham to the position that Ollie had picked up really well. It appears he had found his spot but just got spat out by coaching/ selection conservatism.

Out Ladhams, Cunningham, Lloyd, COR, Wicks
In Hickey, Campbell, Fox, HHK Gould up forward, Amartey

The last 2 years they have been building speed and youth yet now have defaulted to the old conservative selection.

Get Jmac off the half back and let him regain his flare. They are trying to make a sow's ear out of silk purse. Don't try to make him something he is not. He is restricted for space on the HBF. It failed with Hewett and Kennedy and they keep making the same mistakes.

One of Cunningham or Lloyd have to go. They are both similar players who just kick the pill to nowhere. Get Ollie back into Cunningham's spot. He has way more hardness than those 2 blokes combined.

We are on the edge of the cliff and selecting olds and bolds will not turn this around. Show some balls at selection. If Wicks keeps his spot they are not serious.

[Roadrunner]

I agree about Campbell but Stephens is becoming a real worry. After watching a few reserves games he has no problem with getting the ball and working hard, and there is no doubt he's an elite runner, but his disposal is so bad. I know Ryan Clarke has his papers stamped but he'd be a much better (and similar) attribute to the seniors than Stephens. I'm starting to doubt if Stephens will even make it as an AFL player.

@mcs I agree about HHK, I was more getting at the fact that Horse seems to have favourites who he favours, instead of giving players who have showed form in the reserves a 3+ game run in the seniors to build confidence and prove themselves.

We need to make changes as current team is not able to sustain 4 quarters of pressure football. Of course, it’s not possible to shut down the opposition completely, but runs of 6+ goals conceded in a quarter won’t win many games.

Hickey is needed in the ruck with support from Sammy until Ladhams comes back after a stint in the ressies. Campbell should be in to gain experience and Clarke deserves another chance. Amartey needs to play a few more games so he can be assessed properly as does Gould. I haven’t written the season off but realistically we’re not top 4 yet and finishing in the 8 may mean just making up the numbers. Much rather use the rest of the games to improve our structure and play the lads in their best positions- and please don’t play Wicks until he shows he can consistently be in our best 6 in the two’s.

[Nico]

The thread titled Round 13 while this will be actually a Round 15 match.
Horse was bold enough to play ROK in the reserves in his final years. He is after a whole team balance.

Doesn't look like that on team structure and hole plugging. He didn't do it with Kennedy and it could be argued ROK was in better form. Too many favourites; Hayward, Wicks, Lloyd and Cunningham. We won't win a flag with those blokes playing.

[The Big Cat]

Stephens is becoming a real worry. After watching a few reserves games he has no problem with getting the ball and working hard, and there is no doubt he's an elite runner, but his disposal is so bad. I know Ryan Clarke has his papers stamped but he'd be a much better (and similar) attribute to the seniors than Stephens. I'm starting to doubt if Stephens will even make it as an AFL player.

Horse just mentioned Stephens in his presser. Just has some things to work on because they know he has high end talent.

The gap between VFL and AFL is a yawning chasm which explains why Clarke looks good at a level down but is diabolical under the real heat of AFL where opponents go just as hard and he gets half the amount of time to think.

I get the feeling from what Longmire said, that with the exception of Hickey there won't be a lot of changes since over the last block of games the blokes playing have done a good job.

[Ludwig]

So they bring back an unfit Cunningham to the position that Ollie had picked up really well. It appears he had found his spot but just got spat out by coaching/ selection conservatism.

Out Ladhams, Cunningham, Lloyd, COR, Wicks
In Hickey, Campbell, Fox, HHK Gould up forward, Amartey

The last 2 years they have been building speed and youth yet now have defaulted to the old conservative selection.

Get Jmac off the half back and let him regain his flare. They are trying to make a sow's ear out of silk purse. Don't try to make him something he is not. He is restricted for space on the HBF. It failed with Hewett and Kennedy and they keep making the same mistakes.

One of Cunningham or Lloyd have to go. They are both similar players who just kick the pill to nowhere. Get Ollie back into Cunningham's spot. He has way more hardness than those 2 blokes combined.

We are on the edge of the cliff and selecting olds and bolds will not turn this around. Show some balls at selection. If Wicks keeps his spot they are not serious.

Did Cunningham really play that poorly? I honestly don't remember. I don't know who he was playing on, but they didn't get much goal production from their small forwards, so hard to blame the lock down small defender. He did play on Jones for a while and Jones only got 5 possessions. Harry had 79% game time, which I think is just a bit down from normal.

Cunningham and Lloyd have been playing different roles over the past few years and I thought Harry was doing just fine until he got injured. Now that he's had a game under his belt, I don't think there should be a fitness problem, so it's hard to see a good reason to drop him.

There's been a big transition this year in backline personnel and the way we are playing because of it. We also need to find a way to get Gould into the side, as he's really earned his shot after 2 + seasons in the reserves. If we are aiming to have Gould and Florent in defence, as well as consider Fox and COR for selection, then we need to reposition Rampe and Lloyd and keep McInerney out of the defensive mix. It's either Blakey or JMac in defence, but not both.

It's hard to see us as a premiership contender when we are still working out where all the parts go. We might as well try to get this part right as much as possible this year and not drag it on longer than we have to. It would be nice to go into next season with a fairly set lineup, knowing we still have a few, like Sheldrick, Roberts, HHK and Sheather to challenge for spots in the side.

[Blood Fever]

Horse just mentioned Stephens in his presser. Just has some things to work on because they know he has high end talent.

The gap between VFL and AFL is a yawning chasm which explains why Clarke looks good at a level down but is diabolical under the real heat of AFL where opponents go just as hard and he gets half the amount of time to think.

I get the feeling from what Longmire said, that with the exception of Hickey there won't be a lot of changes since over the last block of games the blokes playing have done a good job.

Saw some vision of the VFL game. Williamstown were terrible and their pressure was non existent. Very poor preparation for the yawning gap you describe.

[SwanSand]

Did Cunningham really play that poorly? I honestly don't remember. I don't know who he was playing on, but they didn't get much goal production from their small forwards, so hard to blame the lock down small defender. He did play on Jones for a while and Jones only got 5 possessions. Harry had 79% game time, which I think is just a bit down from normal.

Cunningham and Lloyd have been playing different roles over the past few years and I thought Harry was doing just fine until he got injured. Now that he's had a game under his belt, I don't think there should be a fitness problem, so it's hard to see a good reason to drop him.

There's been a big transition this year in backline personnel and the way we are playing because of it. We also need to find a way to get Gould into the side, as he's really earned his shot after 2 + seasons in the reserves. If we are aiming to have Gould and Florent in defence, as well as consider Fox and COR for selection, then we need to reposition Rampe and Lloyd and keep McInerney out of the defensive mix. It's either Blakey or JMac in defence, but not both.

It's hard to see us as a premiership contender when we are still working out where all the parts go. We might as well try to get this part right as much as possible this year and not drag it on longer than we have to. It would be nice to go into next season with a fairly set lineup, knowing we still have a few, like Sheldrick, Roberts, HHK and Sheather to challenge for spots in the side.

I wouldn't drop Cunningham and don't think Ladhams should be automatically dropped to the bottom of the list just because he did what he did. They worked well to go under his skin and it worked. Move on. Cunningham is a good defender and I agree that one game under his belt is going to be good.
I reckon how we play the bits and pieces down there and how the moving parts of midfield cover the ground both forward and backward is the thing that we need to work on.
Our genuine concern is that we have individual players that are good enough to challenge for top 4 but collectively we are missing the cohesion that is necessary to take the next step. Complete buy-in, reading the game situation and flexibility within the game is what the young ones will need to learn and practise. Having said that we still have good enough players and probably plan to challenge this year !

But if we are not Top 8 this year, we may be out of the top 8 for a year or two and will have to be astute at the trade table to get the missing pieces in 2023/24.

[Aprilbr]

Whenever we have lost this season, its because our midfield is well beaten, especially in terms of clearances and contested possessions. Unlike most other top half sides, we do not possess a midfielder who gathers large numbers of possessions week in/out. The closest we have to that is Mills who we have often moved to the back half to shore up our defense in recent games. Robbing Peter to pay Paul!

Unfortunately, we probably do not have that midfielder we need currently on our list, or if we do, they are still developing. Bringing in Hickey will improve our clearance work but the contested possessions remain a concern. I think Campbell will develop but whether he can quickly become that guy is unlikely. There has to now be a huge question mark over Stephens. With experience and work on his speed maybe Roberts could develop into that high possession in and under player? Perhaps Sheldrick when he returns? Its a dilemma. We will just have to keep shuffling our minds this season to try and find an answer. I expect we will look for a quality mid to trade in at season's end to arrest this issue. In the meantime, this is my selections:

In Hickey, Ronke, Fox
Out Ladhams, Wicks, O'Readon

[RogueSwan]

Did Cunningham really play that poorly? I honestly don't remember. I don't know who he was playing on, but they didn't get much goal production from their small forwards, so hard to blame the lock down small defender. He did play on Jones for a while and Jones only got 5 possessions. Harry had 79% game time, which I think is just a bit down from normal.

Cunningham and Lloyd have been playing different roles over the past few years and I thought Harry was doing just fine until he got injured. Now that he's had a game under his belt, I don't think there should be a fitness problem, so it's hard to see a good reason to drop him.

...

I wouldn't drop Cunningham and don't think Ladhams should be automatically dropped to the bottom of the list just because he did what he did. They worked well to go under his skin and it worked. Move on. Cunningham is a good defender and I agree that one game under his belt is going to be good. ...

May be Harry needs to be moved into Wick's spot as a defensive fwd? Harry did play a similar position, and played it well, in the days of our "sling-shot" footy.

[Swanny40519]

Last weeks loss puts us in a really difficult game against the Saints. With the next 3 tough games against a revitalised Bombers, Dogs and Freo - this weekends game is one we cannot drop or the season is gone.

Our defence is buckling under the strain with Rampe in poor form and Lloyd giving away a couple of goals per game with his poor disposal and decision making, we need to bolster our defence. Either bring back Melican, or give Gould a try and move McInerney back to attack. Wicks has done nothing the past 3-4 weeks,

Out: Ladhams, O'Readon, Wicks, Lloyd

In: Hickey, Campbell, Armety,Gould/Melican