There will be a Sydney Swans AFLW team in the 2022-23 season

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  • Maltopia
    Senior Player
    • Apr 2016
    • 1556

    Originally posted by KTigers
    I would have thought that male members of mens sporting teams have been referring to their teammates as "boys",
    and female members of womens sporting teams have referring to their teammates as "girls" since the dawn of time.
    I don't think there is anything sinister or untoward about it. I think it's almost a term of affection between teammates.
    And not meant to mean they think their teammates are children.
    I suppose if the womens league is called the AFLW then maybe the mens league could become the AFLM.
    It wouldn't bother me. But it's hard to see it happening anytime soon.
    The concern that was voiced was primarily around Errol Gulden, a man referring to the players as girls. A man meaning well I am sure, without any sinister intent, and maybe under the pressure of an unscripted media session.

    Meaning well does not mean it doesn’t have an impact. Language and marginalisation can happen through subconscious unintended prejudice and norms. It doesn’t have to be through malicious intent.

    I refer to racism as a parallel, not to make it a culture war and say it is just as bad. The Collingwood players who called H Lumumba a chimp a decade ago thought it was harmless fun and a term of affection for super talented player. It took him and Indigenous team mates a decade to speak up about it.

    If teammates want to refer to each other as girls that is one thing.

    Supporters and staff who are male referring to the players is different.

    Using your argument KTigers, it is the AFLW, not the AFLG.

    And there were plenty who raised concerns at the time that the AFLW name was sexist as they were also AFL players and the men’s completion was not being renamed AFLM.

    Tennis handle it a bit better with a men’s tour under the ATP (and Challenger) and the women’s tour under the WTA and ITF.

    Comment

    • KTigers
      Senior Player
      • Apr 2012
      • 2499

      Clearly the Collingwood club effectively condoning calling Lumumba a chimp is just appalling. Even Buckley making light of it shows he
      is so stupid he doesn't even know how stupid he is. It's like the other night we watched "The Final Quarter" and in it there is Garry Lyon
      saying one moronic thing after another. His only plus was that he was not "as bad" as Sam Newman. Football is full of these types of
      people. They have reached middle age and then some and have learnt nothing about the world. There is no hope for them.
      Errol is what? 20, right. He is a kid basically. He is not a man. I'd give him a free pass for now. If he is smart enough he'll learn. If he's
      not, he won't.
      Re the name of the womens league. Yeah sure maybe they should change it to something without the "W". Call it NAR (National Australian
      Rules) or FAR (Federation of Australian Rules). People will figure it out. Hopefully.
      Last edited by KTigers; 26 July 2022, 11:38 AM.

      Comment

      • Maltopia
        Senior Player
        • Apr 2016
        • 1556

        I think our club can do better.

        AFL and AFLW players come together at MCG in celebration of historic milestone

        For the men, some teams sent captains, high draft picks, stars or exciting talent. Eg the Bont, Selwood etc.

        We sent an injured player who had a brain snap and punched a down player on the ground.

        Yes Paddy Ryder is also injured, but at least he is not a lesser light like Ladhams.

        Comment

        • Goal Sneak
          Out of Bounds on the Full
          • Jun 2006
          • 653

          Originally posted by Maltopia
          I think our club can do better.

          AFL and AFLW players come together at MCG in celebration of historic milestone

          For the men, some teams sent captains, high draft picks, stars or exciting talent. Eg the Bont, Selwood etc.

          We sent an injured player who had a brain snap and punched a down player on the ground.

          Yes Paddy Ryder is also injured, but at least he is not a lesser light like Ladhams.
          Now this just seems as if you're actively looking to create issues to complain about and push the line that the whole Club is sexist.

          Comment

          • stevoswan
            Veterans List
            • Sep 2014
            • 8546

            Originally posted by Maltopia
            The concern that was voiced was primarily around Errol Gulden, a man referring to the players as girls. A man meaning well I am sure, without any sinister intent, and maybe under the pressure of an unscripted media session.

            Meaning well does not mean it doesn’t have an impact. Language and marginalisation can happen through subconscious unintended prejudice and norms. It doesn’t have to be through malicious intent.

            I refer to racism as a parallel, not to make it a culture war and say it is just as bad. The Collingwood players who called H Lumumba a chimp a decade ago thought it was harmless fun and a term of affection for super talented player. It took him and Indigenous team mates a decade to speak up about it.

            If teammates want to refer to each other as girls that is one thing.

            Supporters and staff who are male referring to the players is different.

            Using your argument KTigers, it is the AFLW, not the AFLG.

            And there were plenty who raised concerns at the time that the AFLW name was sexist as they were also AFL players and the men’s completion was not being renamed AFLM.

            Tennis handle it a bit better with a men’s tour under the ATP (and Challenger) and the women’s tour under the WTA and ITF.
            Look I'm sure you mean well.....but that just sounds preachy and superior.....as if others can't see what you see. Like you underestimate everyone else. I think we all get it and don't need to be told. Sorry.

            Again, I'll wait for the women to say something.....if they deem it worthy.....but I don't think I'll be holding my breath for it. Of course, if they do, I'll respect their wishes.....because they want it.
            .

            - - - Updated - - -

            Originally posted by Goal Sneak
            Now this just seems as if you're actively looking to create issues to complain about and push the line that the whole Club is sexist.
            +1

            Comment

            • TheBloods
              Suspended by the MRP
              • Feb 2020
              • 2047

              Christ , i came in here hoping to find some info on when the girls start , instead its just back and forths . Why ?

              Liz said she felt bothered by using the word girls . I would use the word girls as some of them are the same age as my granddaughters who i still remember dropping off at kindergarten ! But thats me . Not my place or anyone elses place to tell Liz how she should feel about it . Instead everyone gets cranky . If you disagree fine . Give your opinion and move on , dont bludgeon someone over the head fod having a different opinion to you !

              Now when the F do the games start , i want to get to some ,

              Comment

              • stevoswan
                Veterans List
                • Sep 2014
                • 8546

                Originally posted by TheBloods
                Christ , i came in here hoping to find some info on when the girls start , instead its just back and forths . Why ?

                Liz said she felt bothered by using the word girls . I would use the word girls as some of them are the same age as my granddaughters who i still remember dropping off at kindergarten ! But thats me . Not my place or anyone elses place to tell Liz how she should feel about it . Instead everyone gets cranky . If you disagree fine . Give your opinion and move on , dont bludgeon someone over the head fod having a different opinion to you !

                Now when the F do the games start , i want to get to some ,
                It hasn't been Liz doing the pontificating.

                PS: I have highlighted the words that may also apply to you......re: RB. Always look within.....

                Comment

                • Maltopia
                  Senior Player
                  • Apr 2016
                  • 1556

                  Originally posted by Goal Sneak
                  Now this just seems as if you're actively looking to create issues to complain about and push the line that the whole Club is sexist.
                  Not my intent, but I fully own that if that is how it has come across, that is my fault.

                  I like to comment on stuff.

                  I don’t at all think the whole club is sexist. I just think we could have sent someone of higher standing.

                  Then again it may also be a personal development thing for Ladhams too.

                  Comment

                  • Ruck'n'Roll
                    Ego alta, ergo ictus
                    • Nov 2003
                    • 3990

                    Originally posted by TheBloods
                    Give your opinion and move on , dont bludgeon someone over the head fod having a different opinion to you !
                    If only you'd taken that bit of advice youself sometime in the last two years.
                    Last edited by Ruck'n'Roll; 26 July 2022, 04:56 PM.

                    Comment

                    • liz
                      Veteran
                      Site Admin
                      • Jan 2003
                      • 16744

                      Originally posted by Maltopia
                      Not my intent, but I fully own that if that is how it has come across, that is my fault.

                      I like to comment on stuff.

                      I don’t at all think the whole club is sexist. I just think we could have sent someone of higher standing.

                      Then again it may also be a personal development thing for Ladhams too.
                      You haven't been pontificating. You have been patiently responding to what people have actually said. I've thought about jumping in on occasions but figured you were likely being more dispassionate than I might be, and drawing on your professional expertise.

                      It is clear (to me) that despite protestations to the contrary, some people don't remotely "get it".

                      But it is nice to know that we girls don't have to make this journey all on our own.

                      Re Ladhams, I initially had a similar reflex response to you when I read that article. But to be fair to the club, most of the players from non-Victorian sides are injured players. Certainly the two from Perth and King from Gold Coast. I'm wasn't aware that Ryan Lester, Brodie Smith or Lachie Jones were injured but I just checked the teams from the weekend. Lester and Jones didn't play, Smith did (against us, so I maybe should have known that). Like it or not, Ladhams is probably the most high profile of our injured players at the moment (O'Riordan, Naismith and Sheather being the only others - I think).

                      Maybe it wouldn't have been that big a deal in normal times for one of the experienced, high-profile players to take a day off training to represent the club. But I imagine they don't want to unnecessarily expose anyone to commercial airline travel right now. It's not the only COVID-risk situation, but it is an avoidable one.

                      Comment

                      • Mel_C
                        Veterans List
                        • Jan 2003
                        • 4470

                        Originally posted by Maltopia
                        I think our club can do better.

                        AFL and AFLW players come together at MCG in celebration of historic milestone

                        For the men, some teams sent captains, high draft picks, stars or exciting talent. Eg the Bont, Selwood etc.

                        We sent an injured player who had a brain snap and punched a down player on the ground.

                        Yes Paddy Ryder is also injured, but at least he is not a lesser light like Ladhams.
                        I understand where you're coming from but Bont and Selwood live in Victoria. They don't have to miss training/meetings etc like one of our captains/stars would have. Ladhams was a senior player who was injured so was available to travel. I noticed Melbourne sent Ben Brown who is also injured and they train just down the road.

                        Comment

                        • TheBloods
                          Suspended by the MRP
                          • Feb 2020
                          • 2047

                          Good that ALL the boys showed up to support the girls getting their jumpers tonight !

                          Comment

                          • Maltopia
                            Senior Player
                            • Apr 2016
                            • 1556

                            Originally posted by liz
                            You haven't been pontificating. You have been patiently responding to what people have actually said. I've thought about jumping in on occasions but figured you were likely being more dispassionate than I might be, and drawing on your professional expertise.

                            It is clear (to me) that despite protestations to the contrary, some people don't remotely "get it".

                            But it is nice to know that we girls don't have to make this journey all on our own.

                            Re Ladhams, I initially had a similar reflex response to you when I read that article. But to be fair to the club, most of the players from non-Victorian sides are injured players. Certainly the two from Perth and King from Gold Coast. I'm wasn't aware that Ryan Lester, Brodie Smith or Lachie Jones were injured but I just checked the teams from the weekend. Lester and Jones didn't play, Smith did (against us, so I maybe should have known that). Like it or not, Ladhams is probably the most high profile of our injured players at the moment (O'Riordan, Naismith and Sheather being the only others - I think).

                            Maybe it wouldn't have been that big a deal in normal times for one of the experienced, high-profile players to take a day off training to represent the club. But I imagine they don't want to unnecessarily expose anyone to commercial airline travel right now. It's not the only COVID-risk situation, but it is an avoidable one.
                            Thanks for your post Liz. Glad that at least in your eyes, I am not overstepping in my posts about gender equality.

                            Good point re the travel to Melbourne for the photo. I did think there were some injured players, but didn't note that was a common theme for the non-Victorian teams. I would have considered sending JPK, former captain and future Swans Legend/HOF member as he isn't a lock to be in the team this week, but it isn't my call to make.

                            Comment

                            • Mark26
                              Senior Player
                              • Jan 2017
                              • 1535

                              Apologies for my late arrival into this forum. There's never a need to apologise for highlighting any form of inequality or subjugation. Thanks to Liz and Malt for doing so. I'm going to sound "preachy" and I don't care.

                              Gender inequality has always existed. Gender inequality still exists in our schools, workplaces and in our football club. Gender inequality is typically watered down by the patriarchy.

                              Women (as a result of said inequality) are by far the most evolved of our species. Women have been reinventing themselves through several waves of feminism. The patriarchy (on the other hand) is still stuck in a form of toxic masculinity.

                              End of sermon... I'll step down from the pulpit.

                              Comment

                              • liz
                                Veteran
                                Site Admin
                                • Jan 2003
                                • 16744

                                Originally posted by Maltopia
                                Thanks for your post Liz. Glad that at least in your eyes, I am not overstepping in my posts about gender equality.
                                I don't think gender equality is the most important aspect of this conversation. It's more, as you've highlighted in several of your posts, people being aware of the language they use, and the effects it has on others (sometimes intended; sometimes not). It's about how people use language to establish power over others and control of a discourse (lots of examples in this thread). It's about appreciating how the words themselves are just a small part of language, and how their meaning changes - subtly or bluntly - depending on their context and on who uses them.

                                And I'd hoped it would be about listening and understanding, but I'm not so sure about that now.

                                Comment

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