Goodes at CHB

[cressakel]

Originally posted by Ruckman
I agree with many of you when Schauble returns we get two bonuses,

Firstly it means the backline can be stabilised. We could even bring back James and give him another shot down back ~ only this time he won't have to establish himself on the biggest and best opposition forward.

Secondly it means we put Adam Goodes back on the ball where he belongs, he looks lost on the forward line and he's far too loose on the backline. On the ball he can trust his reading of the play and return to Brownlow form (yes I know he's injured but the injury is too slight for an operation).

Also given that big Jason Ball is going to need a break soon (back spasms not good) it may give the Swans a chance to see what a Doyle/Goodes ruck partnership would be like.

Doyle takes the centre square bounce then moves forward to provide some height up there, and Goodes gets to run around the ground.


However I'm repeating myself as you see from an earlier post (May 10) . . .


Without Goodes in the ruck, (which provides us with a fourth midfielder at bounces ~ he roves a lot of his own taps) we loose a lot at clearances. And if the opposition taggs Kirk, as Richmond did, then we're really stuffed.

So why isn't he in the ruck where he can be run into form?
Probably Roos believes his frame won't take the buffeting, that he will lose his spring from too many collisions (ala Dermott Brereton). In this he's probably correct ~ but CAN he however play anywhere other than the ruck?

I believe like many of you he should be returned to the midfield, he should spend half of each quater in the ruck (about all he can stand), the rest of the game should be spent either in the forward line "resting" (although not long because he really has phenomenal aerobic capacity) or as someone suggested in the preseason he should spend time on the ball. Not however at centre square bounces.
I think I'm right now.


Five days later they sent Goodes back to the centre square and he did his knee, I was right then and I think I'm right now!

Goodes has been found out the last three games by his inability to jump, spoil and double back on his opponent while in defence. If a medal was given out for the worst on ground, Goodes would have nine Downlow votes in the last three games.

As I mentioned above, Goodes has lost his ability to jump and contest in packs and to quickly turn when outpositioned. Therefore, I would play Goodes on the wing, instead of on the ball in a ruck-roving capacity, as he won't have to compete in rucking contests or will he be bullocked and have to turn quickly when the ball bounces in all angles at Centre bounces. As Goodes hasn't lost his sublime ability or endurance, I believe the wing would be the best position at this stage of the season. There is no pre-requisite on the height of wingers therefore, I believe by playing Goodes on the wing the opposition coach would be severly woried about his influence on games and would therefore have a very talented player manning up on Goodes.

Saddington was used in this role, even though the team sheet listed him everywhere else, for at least three games before going down with a knee injury - which I believe was very effective and caught the opposition off guard.

[Ruck'n'Roll]

Originally posted by cressakel
Goodes has lost his ability to jump and contest in packs and to quickly turn when outpositioned.

There seems to be a great deal of uncertainty about exactly what abilities Adam has lost.
You've mentioned vertical power and horizonal stability, another poster suggested leg speed.

Does anyone actually know? He seems to have lost them all yet the injury is purportedly insufficiant for an operation so is his prob physical or mental?

It's not that I disagree with your wing suggestion, I just wonder what capabilities has he really lost and which ones have disappeared (just as they did prior to the knee injury when he was wasting space on the forward line.

[cressakel]

Originally posted by Ruckman
There seems to be a great deal of uncertainty about exactly what abilities Adam has lost.
You've mentioned vertical power and horizonal stability, another poster suggested leg speed.

Does anyone actually know? He seems to have lost them all yet the injury is purportedly insufficiant for an operation so is his prob physical or mental?

It's not that I disagree with your wing suggestion, I just wonder what capabilities has he really lost and which ones have disappeared (just as they did prior to the knee injury when he was wasting space on the forward line.

Good point.

Goodes has had a problem over the years with getting everything right mentally before his obvious physical abilities shone through on the ground in all sorts of positions.

Maybe that is why he played so well to begin with at CHB but now has tapered off somewhat. Therefore, Roos should advise every 3-4 weeks that he will be playing a new role and the challange to play well in that particular position will mean a high level of performance is given during the initial 2-3 weeks in that position.

[sharp9]

Can't say I agree with ALL this negativity. He's no Chad Cornes right now, but there have been significant occasions in recent weeks when he has chipped in with fantastic efforts that will hopefully become the norm not the exception. Haven't watched the tape but, from memory, there were three really important contested marks or spoils from him in the last q (when we got our scoring going) and he turned defence into attack just as would hope he would do.

As for being outmarked by Fisher etc....well that shouldn't happen to a player of his quality and I reckon he will get the hang of it very quickly.

My best 22 definitely has him at CHB

Bevan Schauble C. Bolton
Barry Goodes Kennelly
Crouch Williams Mathews
Davis Hall O'Keefe
Nicks O'Loughlin Schneider

Ball Kirk J. Bolton

Doyle Saddington Fixter Maxfield

No room for Buchanan, Ablett, McVeigh, Fosdike, LRT, James if everyone is fit and firing.

[penga]

Originally posted by sharp9
As for being outmarked by Fisher etc....well that shouldn't happen to a player of his quality and I reckon he will get the hang of it very quickly.

fisher is a bloody good mark... wouldnt that also have something to do with goodesy being outmarked by him? or is it that goodesy had to punch the ball?

saddington was crucufied for being outmarked by fisher... do we see a trend? it might have something to do with fisher actually being pretty good!!!

if goodesy was marking bazza and bazza took a mark, would it be coz goodesy didnt control the situation like he should have OR bazza can actually take a mark?

[NMWBloods]

Goodes doesn't seem (at this stage) to have the defensive ability to spoil his opponents, which is something that Saddington has been criticised for. Schauble, C Bolton and Barry usually are able to put a lot of pressure on their opponents during marking contests, either punch the ball or hitting the arms. Everyone can get outmarked, however it depends on how often and how it looks.

[penga]

Originally posted by NMWBloods

my point was, that fisher is a good mark and it should not be seen as a given that goodesy will beat him hands down...

more respect needs to be shown on this board for a lot more of the opposition's players

[Mark]

Originally posted by Ruckman
There seems to be a great deal of uncertainty about exactly what abilities Adam has lost.
You've mentioned vertical power and horizonal stability, another poster suggested leg speed.

Does anyone actually know? He seems to have lost them all yet the injury is purportedly insufficiant for an operation so is his prob physical or mental?

It's not that I disagree with your wing suggestion, I just wonder what capabilities has he really lost and which ones have disappeared (just as they did prior to the knee injury when he was wasting space on the forward line.

Cruciates along with colaterals give the knee/stifle strengh from shearing pressure. So basically, they stabilise the joint from sideways and front-back pressure. Cruciates tie across in an x across the joint (side to side) and also from back to front. The grade of his pcl tear is such that an operation only returns the current amount of stability anyway (ie no perfect cure !).

Hope that makes sense, hard to explain without using jargon.

So to answer question, his knee will feel loose, and will have a degree of inflamation. Very much now a mental and physical injury. He can build up muscles around joint to give the "feeling" of increased stabilty but it is again a mental thing. All injuries are different but until he is comfortable with it, it will affect most parts of his game.

[NMWBloods]

Originally posted by penga


my point was, that fisher is a good mark and it should not be seen as a given that goodesy will beat him hands down...

more respect needs to be shown on this board for a lot more of the opposition's players

I completely agree with that - some people seem to think most other teams' players are inferior to ours.

[undy]

Originally posted by sharp9
Can't say I agree with ALL this negativity. He's no Chad Cornes right now, but there have been significant occasions in recent weeks when he has chipped in with fantastic efforts that will hopefully become the norm not the exception. Haven't watched the tape but, from memory, there were three really important contested marks or spoils from him in the last q (when we got our scoring going) and he turned defence into attack just as would hope he would do.
::

I was talking to a Port fan about this - he reckons that when Cornes zones off his man, he often ends up picking up another player in that line of offence/defence, so he still in a similar (CHB) role. I'd guess the rest of the Port backline are more used to this style of play than the Swans. Its pretty hard to play as a defender - you are focussed on your player in a man-on-man defence role but have to be aware of someone else switching, but I don't think its beyond our backline.

[Ruck'n'Roll]

Originally posted by Mark
Cruciates along with colaterals give the knee/stifle strengh from shearing pressure. So basically, they stabilise the joint from sideways and front-back pressure. Cruciates tie across in an x across the joint (side to side) and also from back to front. The grade of his pcl tear is such that an operation only returns the current amount of stability anyway (ie no perfect cure !).

Hope that makes sense, hard to explain without using jargon.

So to answer question, his knee will feel loose, and will have a degree of inflamation. Very much now a mental and physical injury. He can build up muscles around joint to give the "feeling" of increased stabilty but it is again a mental thing. All injuries are different but until he is comfortable with it, it will affect most parts of his game.

Thankyou very much.
So it won't improve with time?
Does this mean he shouldn't be playing in a key position?

[Mark]

Originally posted by Ruckman
Thankyou very much.
So it won't improve with time?
Does this mean he shouldn't be playing in a key position?

Million dollar question !, due to limited/lack of direct blood flow to knee capsule any repair is extremely slow. Repair can also take a number of forms, some of which are undesirable (footywise). Very much a wait and see situation IMHO.

That really only leaves mental side of things as far as KPP goes, and that is up to Adam !

[Boodnutz]

I don't want to sound like the voice of doom here, but I believe there is a real chance that Adam could fade out of the game altogether over the next 2-3 years.
There's two issues here - 1)how sound is his knee?2)can he really develop as a defender?
Given that most players are carry long term injuries of some sort I don't know that the knee is the major factor. The key factor is whether or not he has a future in defence. I know he needs time to develop but the early assessment would be in the negative. How valuable is he really to a defensive team? He's constantly outmarked and outpositioned, but because he's Adam Goodes we give him time to improve that people like say, Heath James do not get.
Pavelich is in the same position. For both of them the time is now here to show whether they can cross over and compete at the same level as say, a Jonathon Brown in a key position or whether they will remain tall midfield runners who just pick off easy possessions and look good.
There must be a few players in the team who look at the freedom he used to get when allowed to roam free and say to themselves "wish I had the same freedom as he gets, I'd get just as many grabs". And they'd probably be right.

[Ruck'n'Roll]

Originally posted by Boodnutz
Pavelich is in the same position.

Well almost, Adams knee notwhithsatnding, your correct, the pair of them are between positions. Pavlich looked destined to be a great key defender yet he's being played as a midfielder (what a waste) Adam of course has been tried down back up forward and neither is convincing.

Perhaps in time he can become a good key position player, however I don't think he will ever be as great as if he were a follower.

Nor do I believe playing a key position is any less perilous for his knee than the ruck (please note previous comment on centre square).

I believe the ruck is where he belongs, I fear he may well "fade-away" when played elsewhere (like Salmon and Barnes at Essendon).

IF, if, if that is the case, then will he (or the coach) have the nerve to ever play in the ruck again?

Other ruckman have come back from worse knee injuries, it will be interesting to see how his career goes.

[sharpie]

Originally posted by Boodnutz
I don't want to sound like the voice of doom here, but I believe there is a real chance that Adam could fade out of the game altogether over the next 2-3 years.
There's two issues here - 1)how sound is his knee?2)can he really develop as a defender?
Given that most players are carry long term injuries of some sort I don't know that the knee is the major factor. The key factor is whether or not he has a future in defence. I know he needs time to develop but the early assessment would be in the negative. How valuable is he really to a defensive team? He's constantly outmarked and outpositioned, but because he's Adam Goodes we give him time to improve that people like say, Heath James do not get.
Pavelich is in the same position. For both of them the time is now here to show whether they can cross over and compete at the same level as say, a Jonathon Brown in a key position or whether they will remain tall midfield runners who just pick off easy possessions and look good.
There must be a few players in the team who look at the freedom he used to get when allowed to roam free and say to themselves "wish I had the same freedom as he gets, I'd get just as many grabs". And they'd probably be right.

He gets a pretty serious injury - you write him off.
He is forced to play a position he probably has had no real training time to learn - you write him off.

But the best one is that you say Heath James was given no time to improve. Really? So what was he doing for all those years on the sidelines? Recovering from injuries? Isnt that what Goodes is doing now, except he is playing through his obvious discomfort.

Give him a decent preseason learning the CHB craft and getting used to his knee before writing him off.