Goodes at CHB

[Ruck'n'Roll]

Originally posted by sharpie

Give him a decent preseason learning the CHB craft and getting used to his knee before writing him off.

Yes it'll be interesting to see what happens. A pity he couldn't learn the admittedly far more complicated Key Forward craft in a preseason or two.

He was / is / has been / will be a truly remarkable ruckman (A modern day Cazaly).

[Boodnutz]

Write him off? I don't think I said that. I said there is a real danger he could fade out of the game. To me, he looks confused when playing in defence. That mind set change may come to him in time or it may not. And yes, a pre-season without the pressure of playing for points may help him adjust.
In relation to Heath James, I referred to game time. I haven't compared stats for Goodsey and James but I would be surprised if there was much variation between them re marks, kicks, tackles, goals conceded etc. From seeing general play, their effectiveness is much the same. Goodsey's in the team, James is out. I assume there is a judgement made that Goodes represents a better prospect in the medium term at least. I rate the coaching team highly and so I respect that judgement, but you wouldn't make that decision based on performances this season.

[dread and might]

i reckon once schauble and james are back in the side, goodes will become the ruck rover type that many on here have discussed.

[swansrule100]

most sides have at best 2 good tall forwards bolton and barry could stop them leaving goodes free

we should try someone else there goodes is ok there, but he is a superstar when he is further up field if he moves and dominates wont need chb half as much anyway

[Nico]

I am going to sit down and watch the replay tonight. Match of the Week at 8.30pm, and look at Goodesy again just to confirm how good he is.

I am still shaking my head at the comments that he could fade away in a year or 2. A few of us on the board understand the seriousness of his injury but others just don't seem to get it.

Goodes is so talented and dedicated that a lesser person probably would have put up the white flag by now.

The only reason he will fade out is if he can no longer continue with his injury. If he faded out because we could not find a position for him he would be the greatest trade of all time, and the Swans the dumbest administration of all time.

[dread and might]

there was at least one passage of play this round and last where goodes wins the 50/50 ball and sets up a great passage of play through brilliance, only to see poor disposals by others leading to nothing. his ability to "make time" once he has the ball has not diminished. people seem to want him to never make mistakes, no matter where he plays.

[dendol]

I guess I brought up the subject because I remember him getting outmarked at least 3 times by De Luca, who is alot skinnier and less-experienced. In a body-on-body contest, I expected Goodesy to be able to effect the spoil, then beat De Luca at ground level. If he couldnt beat a skinny kid, then how will he go against the more established CHF's?

Like I said, its still early days yet. He has one of the best CHB's of all time in Roos to teach him the trade. If Roosy reckons he's CHB material, who am I to say otherwise?

[Ruck'n'Roll]

Originally posted by Nico
A few of us on the board understand the seriousness of his injury but others just don't seem to get it.

Well I'm glad your so "in the know"

You don't however pass on much info (unlike "Mark" above, thanks again).

My question for either of you (or anyone else) is this . . .

His injury isn't operable because it's condition is better than it would be after an operation (or so the Swans said)
and
many players (including ruckman) have comeback from knee problem (up to multiple reconstructions)
so
Why is Adam not playing so poorly?

Is it lack of confidence in his ability to play CHB?
Is it lack of confidence in his knee?
Is Nico's pronouncements more correct than the Swans as to the seriousness of the injury?

[Boodnutz]

I think Dendol has hit the nail on the head. It is the one on one defensive contests that I think he struggles with. These are the contests that usually are particular to key position players where the ball comes in, normally with some time to develop a body on body contest. He regularly lost out with these to Deluca on Saturday and has done with most opponents this year. My belief is that you can only teach so much this type of play. Much of it is instinctive.

"We on the board"? Pardon me, cos I'm new here, but do we have board members able to give insights into the inner sanctum?

I also think Goodsey has got off lightly re scrutiny this season. He's a Brownlow medallist for heaven's sake, and a worthy one at that. Look at the examination Crawford got after failing to produce after his Brownlow season. If Adam was playing for a Victorian club his life would be hell at the moment. I know that's not fair, and he doesn't deserve it, but that's the reality.

I'd really like to see a bit more openness and discussion emanate from the Swans re some of these issues. I know clubs always like to put the best spin on situations but they'd help the profile of club by talking more about where individuals are at etc. In particular, I'd like to see much more comment from Nathan Gibbs. His knowledge of where players are at physically and mentally is superb. In a lot of ways, his comments in the media are the most valuable from any member of the club - Roosy included.

[Bart]

Question for everybody ? This is purely hypothetical. If Goodes best position is in the ruck and he can't ruck again for the rest of his career, yet we struggle to nail down an ideal position for him, what value with Goodes be at trade time given our need of a gun midfielder and defender. I ask this as I believe that we are going to have to pay heavily for our wishlist.

[Go Swannies]

My wishlist is pretty short - I wish Adam was playing with the authority he showed last year.

Trade Goodes - here we go again. Why not trade Kirk? Right now he'd have more value. Having risen to the peak of his profession, it's not surprising Goodes has gone through a slump - though he hasn't dropped back to the level he played at when Rocket was coach. At the start of the season he was trying to be too clever. Then he suffered an injury that has forced him to change the whole way he moves on the field. Surprise! It has taken him a while to get used to it - and he's become a lot more diffident in one-on-one contests. But he was back on the field very quickly and hasn't been letting us down: he just hasn't been breaking games open.

Watch the Carlton game again - some of his positional play was excellent. He is not good defensively playing against a specific target. But that was never his strength. As a rover his ability to read the play remains brilliant. When the team is back to full strength we won't have to use him to plug the gaps.

At least he's playing in a team doing better than either of his co-Brownlowers. And they aren't playing at the same level they did last year either.

Apart from manning up, he seems to be playing better in recent weeks - but still grabs his knee after every play. Let's hope he continues to improve as we run to the finals (hopefully) or we may even have to wait for next year.

If we traded Goodes who would we want in his place. The ideal would be someone big and fast with great athletic skill and excellent ability to read the game. It'd be perfect if it was someone with a proven record of performance like, say, a Brownlow. How about trading him for, um, Adam Goodes who fits all these criteria.

[NMWBloods]

Originally posted by Bart
Question for everybody ? This is purely hypothetical. If Goodes best position is in the ruck and he can't ruck again for the rest of his career, yet we struggle to nail down an ideal position for him, what value with Goodes be at trade time given our need of a gun midfielder and defender. I ask this as I believe that we are going to have to pay heavily for our wishlist.

I think Goodes can be a gun midfielder (as he effectively showed last year), playing as a ruck rover or around-the-ground ruckman. So, I don't think a trade is needed.

[Nico]

Ruckman, I don't profess to be in the know. I am just stating my opinion as to how he is restricted by his injury and believe people are judging him harshly and comparing with his 2003 form, and still expect him to play as well.

I was a critic of him playing up forward and when he had previously played back was genuinely loose. If he was fully fit then we would be in a better position to judge his current ability as a backman.

Watching the replay he may have been outmarked a couple of times, but it was obvious he does not have the spring to jump and spoil from behind. He still played darned well and is a valuable player for the team. He seems to be trying to tweak his style to adapt to his injury.

Of course his best value is as an onballer but that is not possible right now.

[liz]

Originally posted by Go Swannies

At least he's playing in a team doing better than either of his co-Brownlowers. And they aren't playing at the same level they did last year either.

Agree with pretty much all your post but not that paragraph.

Buckley has been hampered by his hamstrings this year but has been playing very well when on the paddock. He was superb against us, and certainly gave Bolton the runaround.

I haven't seen much of Adelaide this year but the reports are that Riccuito is playing just as well as he did this year and is one of the current favourites for this year's BM.

[chammond]

Originally posted by Nico
Watching the replay he may have been outmarked a couple of times, but it was obvious he does not have the spring to jump and spoil from behind. He still played darned well and is a valuable player for the team. He seems to be trying to tweak his style to adapt to his injury.

Spot on . . . the way he's playing is a direct response to his injury.

Anyone who has "done a knee" (surely I can't be the only one on this board?) will tell you the biggest hurdle is not the physical recovery, but the mental trauma of feeling that you aren't able to rely on your knees.

The symptoms are obvious . . . no problem running in straight lines, but a strong aversion to a zig-zag or u-turn . . . a lack of strength in trying to push off from the damaged leg . . . soreness in the knee when bent past 90 degrees.

I think it's amazing that he even contemplates holding down a key position, let alone does a pretty good job at it. It's a stroke of genius on Roos' part to make the most of a bad turn by teaching Goodes a new position while he rehabilitates.

Had to chuckle at the idea that Goodes might be traded. Nearly as funny as calling Adrian De Luca a "skinny kid".