End of season cull - up to 11 players

[Nico]

Just for the record, Mitchells stats Round 10.

16 kicks, 23 handpasses, 5 marks, 18 clearances.

18 bloody clearances.

They are starting to compare him to Greg Williams in the ball getting department.

Judd is only one who is ahead of him, for now. The others don't hold a candle to him.

He must be way up in the Brownlow Votes.

[NMWBloods]

Mitchell is a sensation. He may not be a "matchwinner" but he goes pretty close.

He's 8th in disposals for the comp, 1st in contested ball gets, and 2nd in clearances, and this is despite playing only 9 of 10 games this year.

Over the past three years he's averaging 20 ppg.

[anne]

Mitchell is great but the bottom line is that he doesn't want to come to Sydney. Nor does anyone else. can you blame them? The club does not appear to be making progress, talented players are stifled and their skills deteriorate, they take years before they get to play seniors (if they are youngsters) and in the meantime have to play in a sub-standard competition which further disadvantages them and opportunities in the media are very limited and hence their chances of supplementing their incomes. I don't know what the answer is but I wish someone would work it out.

[cressakel]

Originally posted by Charlie
... Mitchell?

As in Sam Mitchell?

... For Goodes?

As in Adam Goodes?

I know that I'm forever reacting badly to trade suggestions... but surely we wouldn't allow ourselves to be taken for such a ride? Mitchell is a very talented young bloke, but I can easily name ten midfielders around the same age that are better than Mitchell... the names Judd, Ablett, Wells, Hodge, Ball, Hasleby, Dal Santo, Coughlan (despite last year's injury woes), Schammer and Cooney come to mind.

Regardless of who are the good midfielders at other AFL clubs to swap for Goodes - or O'Loughlin, Leo, Hall, Kennelly, etc etc etc ra ra ra ra - you don't, REPEAT DON'T, swap any of your best ten players for another player in the top ten of another club.

The idea is to top up on the existing top ten talent to build a flag towards, not get rid of talent for like minded talent. In the initial thread of getting rid of 11 current players by either retiring, trading or delisting, not one of those players is top ten - or top 15 for that matter - at the Swans and never will be, hence getting rid of this deadwood and trying our luck with an OUT OF CONTRACT money hungry good/gun midfielder from another club, trying our luck with mature age players from the WAFL, SANFL, VFL & the country league's and trying our luck with under 18 TAC Cup players (Hird was picked in the 70's, anything can happen, especially a kid that has pace to burn to help out our in and under Kirk's and Bolton's).

You are only as good as your weakest links and those weakest links at present are the 11 players I initially named in this thread - not the likes of O'Loughlin, Hall, Goodes, Barry, Kennelly, Kirk, Bolton etc etc.

NMW - O'Loughlin leads to the pockets occasionally because @@@@ing duds like Buchanan, Fosdike & Matthews haven't the footy smarts and confidence to kick to the initial lead of 20-30 metres straight down the ground and therefore Micky has to double back and go again on the lead to the pockets because the straight down the ground option is blocked. Read: Roosy's game plan on that one.....

Although, I'd rather Micky from an angle than dead in front 30m out, as he usually misses those shots on goal.

[NMWBloods]

Originally posted by cressakel
Regardless of who are the good midfielders at other AFL clubs to swap for Goodes - or O'Loughlin, Leo, Hall, Kennelly, etc etc etc ra ra ra ra - you don't, REPEAT DON'T, swap any of your best ten players for another player in the top ten of another club.

Sometimes it can make sense to get the right type of player.

getting rid of this deadwood and trying our luck with an OUT OF CONTRACT money hungry good/gun midfielder from another club,

We need something to trade usually and we don't have much.

trying our luck with mature age players from the WAFL, SANFL, VFL & the country league's and trying our luck with under 18 TAC Cup players (Hird was picked in the 70's, anything can happen, especially a kid that has pace to burn to help out our in and under Kirk's and Bolton's).

I think we should look closer at some different avenues, such as the country league.

NMW - O'Loughlin leads to the pockets occasionally because @@@@ing duds like Buchanan, Fosdike & Matthews haven't the footy smarts and confidence to kick to the initial lead of 20-30 metres straight down the ground and therefore Micky has to double back and go again on the lead to the pockets because the straight down the ground option is blocked. Read: Roosy's game plan on that one.....

Although, I'd rather Micky from an angle than dead in front 30m out, as he usually misses those shots on goal.

True enough.

However, MOL has tended to lead to the pockets more than straight ahead over his career. Then again, he has always played in a team that hugs the boundary. Imagine how good he could have been with say Essendon!!

[Sean]

Mitchell is a gun but who is he going to give the ball to? We need a midfielder but it's not the in and under type - it's more of a receiver.

If you look at Mitchell's stats it shows that he handballs more than he kicks this season - we've already got players who do that. If we could get him and another Paul Williams then sign me up but Mitchell on his own may not help us a great deal IMHO.

[NMWBloods]

Originally posted by Sean
Mitchell is a gun but who is he going to give the ball to? We need a midfielder but it's not the in and under type - it's more of a receiver.

If you look at Mitchell's stats it shows that he handballs more than he kicks this season - we've already got players who do that. If we could get him and another Paul Williams then sign me up but Mitchell on his own may not help us a great deal IMHO.

I agree - by himself he is not the answer. I think we need a couple of running and kicking players. One of those could be Kennelly. Another could potentially be McVeigh or Dempster or even Davis.

Or we could go out and recruit one.

[Sean]

Originally posted by NMWBloods
I agree - by himself he is not the answer. I think we need a couple of running and kicking players. One of those could be Kennelly. Another could potentially be McVeigh or Dempster or even Davis.

I've been thinking that too. The most frustrating thing for me this season is not losing - I'm pretty much over that as soon as the match finishes. It's that I'm not completely sure that we are doing things that will improve us.

I'd like us to go with B1, Kirk, Ablett, Kennelly & McVeigh in the midfield for a while and see how it goes. With Dempster able to play HBF I think we can do it.

If that works then Mitchell would be an excellent addition.

[Ruck'n'Roll]

So we cut 11 players, where do we get their replacements?

Given that gatting a player from another club involves swapping one of ours or draft picks.

On form we'd probably want to promote Vogels and Shaw from the rookies (perhaps also Garubba and Grundy) so that's 4.

Which means the rest are to come from the draft? What does a 7th (or later if we sell a pick) round draft pick look like?

We will undoubtedly see more movement on our list this year than last however talk of 11 is seriously "Hysterical Red Queen" time.

[cressakel]

Originally posted by Ruckman
So we cut 11 players, where do we get their replacements?

Given that gatting a player from another club involves swapping one of ours or draft picks.

On form we'd probably want to promote Vogels and Shaw from the rookies (perhaps also Garubba and Grundy) so that's 4.

Which means the rest are to come from the draft? What does a 7th (or later if we sell a pick) round draft pick look like?

We will undoubtedly see more movement on our list this year than last however talk of 11 is seriously "Hysterical Red Queen" time.

Getting another player from an AFL club doesn't always involve draft swaps, does the word "pre-season draft" ring any bells to you ie. Nick Stevens.....Can't remember Carlton having to palm off a Campo, Kouta, Fevola etc etc to get Stevens....If I remember rightly, Port Adelaide got a donut (a big zero) in exchange, which is how the pre-season draft works...My threads have always stipulated if available which, to simplify for yourself, means if a good/gun midfielder like Stevens becomes available via this situation - which is extremely rare but that is why I put the stipulation in.

If we cull 11 players, we may/could promote 2-3 from the rookie list, 6-7 from the National Draft and 1-2 from the pre-season draft - don't see no reason why not as the 11 new players couldn't be any worse than the @@@@EN DUDS mentioned by myself to get rid of at seasons end....

A 7th round draft pick could look like a James Hird, Brett Heady etc etc who were all taken at this stage of the draft. Or should all clubs shut up shop after picks 30-35 and be resigned to the fact that players picked from this point onwards are only going to play 1-40 games and only when players picked in the top 30 of previous drafts are out injured or suspended ???!!!

I'll tell you my faith in the top half of the draft pool !!!

Nick Fosd***head - Pick 3
Brett Kirk - Rookie list

I DO NOT HAVE ANY FAITH IN THE DRAFT LISTINGS AS SUCH, WHAT I DO HAVE FAITH IN IS THE RECRUITING MANAGER LIKING A PLAYER ON A HUNCH AND PICKING THAT PLAYER AT ANY DRAFT POSITION SUCH AS 12, 32, 52, 72 OR 88.....

[sharp9]

Look, just apply some bloody commonsense.

Thank you Charlie at least you think things through in the "real" world.

You would never de-list any player unless

a) You are sure he is not going to be a good ordinary premiership player...ever

and

b) You are sure no other club would want him.

or

c) You have to free up space on the list.

So let's get real, OK.

We don't need to free up list space this year as Ball and Maxfield will retire.

It is also a probability that Nicks will retire and maybe Williams? Why? Because we are not going to win the premiership this year or next unless there is a sensational turnaround in performance by at least ten players. Not out of the question but highly unlikely.

The reality is that we are out of all our listed players and 2nd year rookies 0-2 will need to be de-listed to meet the requirements.

Much as I bag Fossy and Mathews I wouldn't de-list them if the replacement was a 4th or 5th Rnd pick. That would be nuts.

I am about to post a new thread which analyses the mistake rate of the players (for round 10) and it makes interesting reading.

I'll give you the highlights now...our top players are the ones that make the least skill ERRORS. They are also players who did not used to have great skills.

The moral of the story is that error management is possible in the development of a player. Playmaking is there from the start.

Anyone who thinks Buchanan should be de-listed is in la-la land, BTW. He's not a Cup-Winning centreman at the moment, for sure, but if you actually look at his contribution and his errors you will see that the gap is close enough that he is a chance to be in the future.

If any baggers actually bother to remember what has happened over the last few weeks they will recalll that the number one player for SUCCESSFUL kicks to the lead of Hall and O'Loughlin is Buchanan by a mile.

Fosdike needs another chance and needs to be played as an attacking midfielder. He was the number 3 draft pick, FFS....not a Judd attacker, for sure, but potentially a Travis Johnstone type. He cannot defend for his mother's honour so give him the chance to show what he can actually do (which is deliver balls into the fifty that are WEIGHTED).

Mathews is an experienced player who may save his career by becoming a proper tagger. Give him a chance at that I say.

Spriggs can definitely be delisted (if he is on a one year deal). He cannot play at all, IMO.

[Newbie]

Talking big number (11) is essentially a call for a re-assessment of players on the list. This is basically a call for auditioning younger players.

I doubt we would cut 11 players in one go, but I would like we offer at least 4-5 decent players for trade (e.g. O'Keefe, Crouch, Mathews, Saddo). It does not mean that we are going to trade all of them but by offering more players, we have a better bargaining power during the trade week. If we could turn over 2/3 of the players mentioned, I think we have done well.

I think a turnover of about 8 would be feasible (2 through trade, 6 from retirement and delisting), the replacement should come from rookie list (2), draft(4), trade(1) and pre-season (1). That is a realistic target.

[Ruck'n'Roll]

Originally posted by cressakel
Getting another player from an AFL club doesn't always involve draft swaps, does the word "pre-season draft" ring any bells to you ie. Nick Stevens.....Can't remember Carlton having to palm off a Campo, Kouta, Fevola etc etc to get Stevens....If I remember rightly, Port Adelaide got a donut (a big zero) in exchange, which is how the pre-season draft works

Yes, my pluraly challenged and somewhat beligerant friend I am familiar with the pre-season draft and just how phenominally thin it's getting.
In recent years you get 1 'Stevens/Rawlings type mercenary money holdout a year' which goes to the worst club and bugger all for anyone else (Did you not notice how few clubs even participate these days?).

Originally posted by cressakel
@@@@EN DUDS mentioned by myself to get rid of at seasons end....
Nick Fosd***head - Pick 3

Todays recipient of the Ruckman's "Hysterically Screaming Red Queen Award" for today.

[LittleSchneider]

This is just a thought - not really backing it, cause I wouldnt do it - but just thought I would throw it our there to see what you guys think.....

What do you think about using McVeigh as trade bait???

[Mike_B]

Originally posted by LittleSchneider
This is just a thought - not really backing it, cause I wouldnt do it - but just thought I would throw it our there to see what you guys think.....

What do you think about using McVeigh as trade bait???

In principle, not against the thought, but in reality, what would we get in return? A similarly inexperienced player no better than him as players with 2 or so years' experience who are regularly playing seniors will not be traded by their current clubs, and we wouldn't get anything better than a 3rd round pick and probably not even that much.