Manly

[Mug Punter]

First of all, congratulations to Manly, to be minor premiers at the first time of asking is a great achievement and they have done it without breaking the bank.

It does demonstrate the small-mindedness of the NSWAFL that this club was refused promotion for so long, largely due to North Shore's lobbying.

Also, and not wishing the devalue their efforts, it does show how very very weak the SFL is these days. It really is not fit for purpose as a leading state league due to the NEAFL watering down the quality of the league. Whilst divisionalisation has many benefits, I do miss the traditional structure.

Perhaps we are now ready for a hybrid system.

I would have four divisions as follows based in results

SFL (8 Teams - two grades) - North Shore, Manly, Pennant Hills, St George, UNSW, Wests, Campbelltown, UTS
SFA Div 1(8 Teams - two grades) - Sydney Uni, East Coast Eagles, Balmain, Wollongong, Sutherland, Parramatta, Penrith, Mac Uni
SFA Div 2 (8 teams - two grades) - Sydney Uni, UTS, UNSW, Blacktown, Randwick, Moorebank, Nor West, Camden
SFA Div 3 (8 teams - one grade) - Gosford plus various thirds teams

Additional one grade divisions could be added as required.

[Coastal Boy]

MP, I cannot find issue with most of your suggestion. A complete overall of each division seems necessary. If the league waits for natural forces to even out the comps we may be waiting for another 5 years (if it happens at all).
I prefer the traditional rivals too. A chance to win back to back flags with promotion/relegation only for continual major success or failure.
Personally I prefer a 10 team comp. Play each side exactly twice for your 18 rounds with a top 5 for finals.
On your rcommendations: I think Gosford would need to play up a division. Blacktown too. Are Auburn def gone? Will Balmain and Illawarra be happy to play below prem div? Norwest don't have 2s - is that a 7 team comp there?
On the whole, your restructuring would bring a fairer and cleaner outcome than the current system.

[Norris Lurker]

I can see the benefit of what MP is suggesting so far as eliminating splits between seniors & reserves. But the ressies between some of the clubs are vastly different standards.

For example, Campbelltown's seniors had a muchly-improved season, and under this structure would remain in Premier Division. But their magoos didn't win a game in Div 3 - I'd hate to imagine what Div 1 opponents would do to them.
Does that matter?

[ShortHalfHead]

Does promotion and relegation every year come into it?

Last year, it would have seen Balmain in the SFL and Manly in the SFA, to which Manly would have dominated.

If you look at this year's divisionalisation structure, it's worked very well, I can't agree with Coastal Boy giving it 5 years, if ever. Only Div 3 seems to have a dominant team, and they were asked to play up at the beginning of the year but declined.

[Ancient Tiger]

MP, I cannot find issue with most of your suggestion. A complete overall of each division seems necessary. If the league waits for natural forces to even out the comps we may be waiting for another 5 years (if it happens at all).
I prefer the traditional rivals too. A chance to win back to back flags with promotion/relegation only for continual major success or failure.
Personally I prefer a 10 team comp. Play each side exactly twice for your 18 rounds with a top 5 for finals.
On your rcommendations: I think Gosford would need to play up a division. Blacktown too. Are Auburn def gone? Will Balmain and Illawarra be happy to play below prem div? Norwest don't have 2s - is that a 7 team comp there?
On the whole, your restructuring would bring a fairer and cleaner outcome than the current system.

I am sure a "new" Balmain would be happy to restructure and rebuild in a lower division. We did it before and came back strong until the club fell into the wrong hands.

In terms of the competition evening out through the current structure, I don't believe that will ever happen. Until clubs are elevated and relegated instead of teams there is going to be very little structure in clubs with fewer volunteers handling a bigger workload, and it will continue to kill club culture as teams within their clubs are not as connected to each other, or to the club as they used to be.

I am all for promotion/relegation but not under the current structure. Does anyone know if another competition that is set up on a team by team relegation system, and if so has it worked? Because it sure hasn't worked here and Sydney cannot afford these type of mistakes.

[Mug Punter]

I can see the benefit of what MP is suggesting so far as eliminating splits between seniors & reserves. But the ressies between some of the clubs are vastly different standards.

For example, Campbelltown's seniors had a muchly-improved season, and under this structure would remain in Premier Division. But their magoos didn't win a game in Div 3 - I'd hate to imagine what Div 1 opponents would do to them.
Does that matter?

It's not ideal but I think that the Seniors should be the benchmark.

I believe that clubs at the lower levels, that admittedly reaped some benefits earlier, are now becoming increasingly fragmented and losing their club spirit by being sent to the four corners of Sydney. Also, home and away is far superior to what we have at the moment (dare I say it that Manly had a dream run and would not have been minor premiers on a home and away basis)

With some additional clubs in the system (Randwick, Blacktown, Gosford etc) the potential for a genuine three division 8 team structure with promotion and relegation exists (one up one down) and clubs in crisis who wish to self-relegate to the lower one grade divisions can do so.

- - - Updated - - -

I am sure a "new" Balmain would be happy to restructure and rebuild in a lower division. We did it before and came back strong until the club fell into the wrong hands.

In terms of the competition evening out through the current structure, I don't believe that will ever happen. Until clubs are elevated and relegated instead of teams there is going to be very little structure in clubs with fewer volunteers handling a bigger workload, and it will continue to kill club culture as teams within their clubs are not as connected to each other, or to the club as they used to be.

I am all for promotion/relegation but not under the current structure. Does anyone know if another competition that is set up on a team by team relegation system, and if so has it worked? Because it sure hasn't worked here and Sydney cannot afford these type of mistakes.

That is exactly what Balmain should do.

The current set up in Sydney footy saddens me. The SFA in the late 80s and 90s was a very good grade of comp with some very strong comps - Manly, Sydney Uni, UNSW and Wollongong were usually strong and Mac Uni had an absolute power team in the late 90s as did the mob from Greystanes.

At the same time SFL was a comp that was genuinely aspired to as it had decent quality. The current comp has too little quality for two main reasons

(1) the drain of the "elite" Sydney players to the NEAFL where they play in a soulless comp that nobody cares about
(2) Too many teams - an 8 team Premier League is ideal

Combine those and it is no wonder that an old SFA club like Manly can come up and be minor premiers at the first time in asking. I can assure you this would never have happened 15 years ago. I remember Manly turning up for a pre-season trial at Gore Hill when they were SFA premiers under Peter Robertson - they turned up real cocky and we absolutely and totally blew them off the park....

[Coastal Boy]

If you look at this year's divisionalisation structure, it's worked very well, I can't agree with Coastal Boy giving it 5 years, if ever. Only Div 3 seems to have a dominant team, and they were asked to play up at the beginning of the year but declined.

From prem div to 5th, there are 12 teams with 3 wins or less for the season. I'd call this a disastrous year for these teams. After at least 5 years of the promotion/relegation system I cannot see how the competition is any more level than previous. No doubt that Manly and UTS needed to be promoted to the top competition. But otherwise I dont see the benefit in this regard. The prom/rel system has provided other benefits but because teams fluctuate each year in their playing rosters, the idea of 6 divisions containing teams of about equal ability is far from yet to materialise.

[UTSBatman]

Personally I prefer a 10 team comp. Play each side exactly twice for your 18 rounds with a top 5 for finals.

Agree with 10 teams if you're going to have a top 5. In an 8 team comp, having just 3 teams miss out of finals doesn't put enough pressure on the regular season

[Coastal Boy]

Tell me Sydney Uni and Sydney Hills are not going to absolutely dominate div 1 next year when they both drop back. I cant see anything else but complete annihilation of the opposition every week.

[ShortHalfHead]

From prem div to 5th, there are 12 teams with 3 wins or less for the season. I'd call this a disastrous year for these teams. After at least 5 years of the promotion/relegation system I cannot see how the competition is any more level than previous. No doubt that Manly and UTS needed to be promoted to the top competition. But otherwise I dont see the benefit in this regard. The prom/rel system has provided other benefits but because teams fluctuate each year in their playing rosters, the idea of 6 divisions containing teams of about equal ability is far from yet to materialise.

Thanks for the great stats, CB. A couple more to put the boot in you may have forgotten. Sydney AFL had 86 teams running around this year. Three of them went winless. Only one team, Mac Uni in women's D2 were undefeated. In Round 14 in PD we had four equal leaders and the fifth team a win away. As it was the fifth team was only a couple and a half away from top spot. In Div 1, 8 of the 10 teams had 7+ wins, 7 teams with 7+ wins in Div 2 with Div 4 having 8 teams with 7+ wins. Penrith, who finished 2nd last, were in finals contention with two rounds remaining in Div 5.

I dont call that a disastrous year at all, quite the opposite in my eyes.

[Coastal Boy]

Shh, but its disastrous for the bottom teams.
I disregard your PD stats because they are exempt from the promotion/relegation system.
Your stats seem to paint a positive light. But when you think that 9 wins/9 losses is the average, this should apply to teams 5 and 6 in a ten team comp. Therefore 7 wins for a team running 7th is nothing special really.
I'm just saying that the current system may be no better than the old one.
The prom/relegation system was designed to: (according to me!)
A) level out the competitions
B) allow clubs to enter less or more teams than the standard 2 teams.
C) allow new clubs to enter the sydneyAFL.
D) allow teams in decline to regroup in a lower division.
The negative points would be:
A) difficulty in finding volunteers to assist at multiple venues on the same day.
B) removal of the ability of players to watch their team mates in different grades.
C) less supporters attending venues (particularly away games) because teams are spread over multiple venues.
D) inability of teams to win back to back titles.
E) clubs have more days for home games requiring more volunteer input compared to the old system.
There are probably more pros and cons.

Now MPs suggestion would (in my opinion) tick all of the positives and remove most of the negatives of the above. Yes, it's debatable, but I think MPs suggestion would not detract from lopsided divisions much at all. A little tinkering(eg campbelltown 2s) is all that is necessary.

What can't we have the best of both concepts??(full prom/rel vs fixed comps)

[ShortHalfHead]

Shh, but its disastrous for the bottom teams.
I disregard your PD stats because they are exempt from the promotion/relegation system.
Your stats seem to paint a positive light. But when you think that 9 wins/9 losses is the average, this should apply to teams 5 and 6 in a ten team comp. Therefore 7 wins for a team running 7th is nothing special really.
I'm just saying that the current system may be no better than the old one.
The prom/relegation system was designed to: (according to me!)
A) level out the competitions
B) allow clubs to enter less or more teams than the standard 2 teams.
C) allow new clubs to enter the sydneyAFL.
D) allow teams in decline to regroup in a lower division.
The negative points would be:
A) difficulty in finding volunteers to assist at multiple venues on the same day.
B) removal of the ability of players to watch their team mates in different grades.
C) less supporters attending venues (particularly away games) because teams are spread over multiple venues.
D) inability of teams to win back to back titles.
E) clubs have more days for home games requiring more volunteer input compared to the old system.
There are probably more pros and cons.

Now MPs suggestion would (in my opinion) tick all of the positives and remove most of the negatives of the above. Yes, it's debatable, but I think MPs suggestion would not detract from lopsided divisions much at all. A little tinkering(eg campbelltown 2s) is all that is necessary.

What can't we have the best of both concepts??(full prom/rel vs fixed comps)

I mostly agree with your pros and cons. Yes, away games are tough and there is some loss in revenue (canteen) for home games if multiple clubs are playing. I don't think that winning back to back flags is a big issue. I think that a team that wins a flag, should be tested up higher (Penrith, who ran 2nd in the home and away season and were beaten by Moorebank in the grand final of 2011, asked for promotion and a spot came up. They then went on to win the 2012 flag in Div 2). I know it's not perfect and their is a fair argument to revert back. The problem then arises with clubs 18's and womens side

[justabaraker]

Tell me Sydney Uni and Sydney Hills are not going to absolutely dominate div 1 next year when they both drop back. I cant see anything else but complete annihilation of the opposition every week.

Coastie, what makes you think that SydUni and Baulko will drop back to Div 1 next year ? Seems I missed something

[chatovadafloor]

Coastie, what makes you think that SydUni and Baulko will drop back to Div 1 next year ? Seems I missed something

Have heard the same rumour.... But from stories heard it is more of a afl wish than from clubs itself.

[unconfuseme]

If they do drop back, they will be stronger than they have been, but I doubt that they will keep all those players.

I reckon a lot of the players will go to either Canberra clubs or try their luck in other comps higher than SFL (say SANFL, WAFL, even VFL) in an attempt to further their careers, or return to their home clubs, which would strengthen the whole comp.