Manly

[justabaraker]

If they do drop back, they will be stronger than they have been, but I doubt that they will keep all those players.

I reckon a lot of the players will go to either Canberra clubs or try their luck in other comps higher than SFL (say SANFL, WAFL, even VFL) in an attempt to further their careers, or return to their home clubs, which would strengthen the whole comp.

Hang on Coastie - are you saying that the NEAFL teams will return to PD, or that the PD teams will drop down to Div ! ?
You can be sure that the NEAFL teams will be staying in NEAFL - they are in a different orbit from the rest of us now, and are locked into that

[mountainsofpain]

First of all, congratulations to Manly, to be minor premiers at the first time of asking is a great achievement and they have done it without breaking the bank.

It does demonstrate the small-mindedness of the NSWAFL that this club was refused promotion for so long, largely due to North Shore's lobbying.

Also, and not wishing the devalue their efforts, it does show how very very weak the SFL is these days. It really is not fit for purpose as a leading state league due to the NEAFL watering down the quality of the league. Whilst divisionalisation has many benefits, I do miss the traditional structure.

When you say Manly was refused promotion for so long, that implies they were pushing for promotion. Is that the case though?

I think they were happy to be where they were, often king of the heap in a lower division. I don't think they were pushing for promotion at all. Maybe last year in particular finally forced a few hands.

And I like how the quality of the Premier Division segues into a criticism of the current divisionalization setup. That's a separate argument and discussion for me.

But I would say re Manly for instance, that they would have never made it to PD under the previous setup, the gap between the old SFL and SFA was too great (in both financial terms and playing strength depth).

You flagged only one reason why the Premier Division is weaker now than it used to be. And certainly having two clubs in the NEAFL running their second sides in the PD is one reason.

But you ignored the biggest reason. In 1999 the old SFL 1st Grade comprised 8 teams (in 98 it comprised only 7, as Campbelltown were off doing their thing in the ACT).

The teams in 99 were - Pennant Hills, East Sydney, Balmain, Campbelltown, North Shore, St George, Western Suburbs and Baulkham Hills.

Since then we have added 4 sides, making the competition 50 percent bigger. No wonder the standard has slipped. And that would still be the case with no NEAFL.

The problem is made worse by the fact that 3 of the 4 sides added are in areas with existing clubs. Sydney Uni* and UTS are now competing with Balmain, Western Suburbs and UNSW/ES, making five sides representing the wider inner city area in PD. *Five seems like an awful lot to me.

Manly is now competing with North Shore. Same patch of turf for all intents and purposes. (And North Shore at least is not that far removed from the city, arguably making the total of "city" clubs six.)

The only club of the recent additions which could be argued is going into new territory (for PD at least) is Wollongong.

So throw 4 more clubs into a pretty much static player pool and this is what you get. The NEAFL just makes it worse.

*I am aware that Sydney Uni used to be in PD (dropped out in 95), but to counter that Balmain used to be in a lower division.

[Ancient Tiger]

It's not ideal but I think that the Seniors should be the benchmark.

I believe that clubs at the lower levels, that admittedly reaped some benefits earlier, are now becoming increasingly fragmented and losing their club spirit by being sent to the four corners of Sydney. Also, home and away is far superior to what we have at the moment (dare I say it that Manly had a dream run and would not have been minor premiers on a home and away basis)

With some additional clubs in the system (Randwick, Blacktown, Gosford etc) the potential for a genuine three division 8 team structure with promotion and relegation exists (one up one down) and clubs in crisis who wish to self-relegate to the lower one grade divisions can do so.

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That is exactly what Balmain should do.

The current set up in Sydney footy saddens me. The SFA in the late 80s and 90s was a very good grade of comp with some very strong comps - Manly, Sydney Uni, UNSW and Wollongong were usually strong and Mac Uni had an absolute power team in the late 90s as did the mob from Greystanes.

At the same time SFL was a comp that was genuinely aspired to as it had decent quality. The current comp has too little quality for two main reasons

(1) the drain of the "elite" Sydney players to the NEAFL where they play in a soulless comp that nobody cares about
(2) Too many teams - an 8 team Premier League is ideal

Combine those and it is no wonder that an old SFA club like Manly can come up and be minor premiers at the first time in asking. I can assure you this would never have happened 15 years ago. I remember Manly turning up for a pre-season trial at Gore Hill when they were SFA premiers under Peter Robertson - they turned up real cocky and we absolutely and totally blew them off the park....

Absolutely correct about coming into the top league 15 years ago. 19 years ago Balmain went up into the SFL after absolutely dominating the SFA only to face record losses in the first two years. Campbelltown beat us by over 300 points at Drummoyne in our first year in the SFL.

[Pekay]

I'd like to see your set up come into effect. Whether we can field two teams again remains to be seen, but it'd be much easier if we could draw from the ressies playing on the same day.

[tara]

MP it seems to me that as usual the structures people throw up tend to protect all the so called traditional PD clubs.

Id support something that actually takes into account a wide variety of factors not just same old same old.

Have measurable and completely transparent KPI's in place that determine who goes up and who goes down and make no exceptions.

Does the club have the results on the board to move up?
Does the club have the finances to go up and are they sustainable?
Are their books audited?
Do they have a suitable facility? Lets face it grounds without a fence are not suitable and there are very very few facilities that actually meet the AFLs minimum requirements for State Leagues.
Do they have a business plan in place that is regularly reviewed and reworked?
Do they have the support and staff that would enable them to move up?
Do they engage people from their region and have community support?
Do they work with the junior clubs in their area? And by work I mean actually do more than just pay lip service to them.

These are just a few questions from the top of my head.

Should the competition become as you wish then measures must be put in place to stop stacking in the lower divisions. Ie players must be registered to a division not just to a club. Players should also be graded accordingly.

[mountainsofpain]

[QUOTE=Mug Punter;621686](1) the drain of the "elite" Sydney players to the NEAFL where they play in a soulless comp that nobody cares about
(2) Too many teams - an 8 team Premier League is idealQUOTE]

Missed this in your subsequent post. Apologies.

[Coastal Boy]

I just thought it was common knowledge that both NEAFL clubs were dropping their PD teams back to first div. You have me doubting my sources...but I think it's accurate and confirmed. Didn't The Student also make mention of it on another post? Maybe we should just ask him.

[chatovadafloor]

I just thought it was common knowledge that both NEAFL clubs were dropping their PD teams back to first div. You have me doubting my sources...but I think it's accurate and confirmed. Didn't The Student also make mention of it on another post? Maybe we should just ask him.

Def heard that rumour.... Hear though lot in both clubs disagree and afl pushing for it.

[Flying Swan]

Interesting to note that a NEAFL team from Cairns is coming into the comp. A big trip for a game of footy.

[Norris Lurker]

Interesting to note that a NEAFL team from Cairns is coming into the comp. A big trip for a game of footy.

Plus there's already the NT Thunder. Getting rid of the conferences in the NEAFL will make the travel bill enormous.

[MrTaxman]

Congrats to Manly. A tremendous effort in their first year up & I think their minor premiership win is unprecedented, particularly in recent times. I think we all underestimated them at the start of year - particularly with their promotion coinciding with the loss of their captain/coach (Petersen) along with their gun full forward (Kovacevic) to their gap year overseas. In fact, one prominent person in AFL Sydney circles told me in no uncertain terms that they would not win a game in 2013 ... and I admit that I didn't disagree with at the time.

I will say that I have always had a mutual respect for the Manly club but that increased to admiration a few years ago when they had problems with the re-surfacing of Weldon Oval & had repeated home matches transferred to the "nearby" Blacktown No 2. They could have complained but as ground manager I saw how hard they worked as a club (from president right down to the bench for Div 5 at 8am) each week both on & off the field. I am always a believer that success on the field will come when you get the off the field stuff right. So well done to Manly & good luck for the rest of the finals series.

[Ancient Tiger]

Congrats to Manly. A tremendous effort in their first year up & I think their minor premiership win is unprecedented, particularly in recent times. I think we all underestimated them at the start of year - particularly with their promotion coinciding with the loss of their captain/coach (Petersen) along with their gun full forward (Kovacevic) to their gap year overseas. In fact, one prominent person in AFL Sydney circles told me in no uncertain terms that they would not win a game in 2013 ... and I admit that I didn't disagree with at the time.

I will say that I have always had a mutual respect for the Manly club but that increased to admiration a few years ago when they had problems with the re-surfacing of Weldon Oval & had repeated home matches transferred to the "nearby" Blacktown No 2. They could have complained but as ground manager I saw how hard they worked as a club (from president right down to the bench for Div 5 at 8am) each week both on & off the field. I am always a believer that success on the field will come when you get the off the field stuff right. So well done to Manly & good luck for the rest of the finals series.

They were our biggest rivals in the SFA period and seem to have a great attitude as a club, so my hat is off to them for their success this year but more so for the work they have done to get there. As you said Blacktown is a tough back up option for a home game. Great job Manly.

[Mug Punter]

Interesting to note that a NEAFL team from Cairns is coming into the comp. A big trip for a game of footy.

Hope the Cairns local league is not too decimated by this.

So, its a 14 team NEAFL with 6 guaranteed (4 AFL teams plus NT and Cairns). Who gets the other 8?

Southport would have to be a no brainer as the second Gold Coast team and you'd think at least two local Brisbane sides (maybe three). ACT is a toughie as the local league is so so weak outside the top 5. Tuggeranong are almost gone so they can slip back to the local comp but if any of Ainslie, Queenbeayan, Eastlakes or Belconnen went down they'd win by 150 points each week. So, I reckon they almost need four ACT sides in there. Guess the key issue is whether they'd be strong enough but they would draw from the Riverina and they all went OK this year with the exception of Tuggeranong

Whichever way you look at it, it seems almost impossible that more than one additional Sydney side can be admitted and I think due to their pathway it would have to be Baulkham Hills. They can be the third path for late bloomers like Rampe to make a late push for an AFL career outside the AFL club structure but I really only think Sydney needs one additional club. If we have a third second tier club in this city I believe it must be one that has a strong junior program.

Sure Sydney Uni will start squealing about the birthright to participate at the highest level and pillage clubs that do the development of juniors but too bad.

For once the interests of the game will put before the sense of entitlement that exists at Sydney Uni...(Cue the student to enter the fray)...

As an aside, I also believe the Baulkos ressies should not be playing in the SFL - throw your best side into one premier comp but not both.

My bets are Southport, Morningside, AN Other Brisbane side, 4 x ACT, Baulkham Hills.

Let's get this NEAFL set up properly and long term so that we can start rebuilding the SFL again.

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Plus there's already the NT Thunder. Getting rid of the conferences in the NEAFL will make the travel bill enormous.

Clearly, if the AFL see the NEAFL as the strategic regional league required to grow the long term development of the northern states and NT then they need to fund and resource the comp properly.

The NEAFL will never have the crowds and traditional support of a SANFL or VFL, nothwithstanding that many of their games are just glorified trials against AFL reserves sides, so they need to foot the bill.

Surely Baulko aren't having to foot the annual Cairns trip?

[chatovadafloor]

AFL foots bill for all teams travel and expenses for away games

Hope the Cairns local league is not too decimated by this.

So, its a 14 team NEAFL with 6 guaranteed (4 AFL teams plus NT and Cairns). Who gets the other 8?

Southport would have to be a no brainer as the second Gold Coast team and you'd think at least two local Brisbane sides (maybe three). ACT is a toughie as the local league is so so weak outside the top 5. Tuggeranong are almost gone so they can slip back to the local comp but if any of Ainslie, Queenbeayan, Eastlakes or Belconnen went down they'd win by 150 points each week. So, I reckon they almost need four ACT sides in there. Guess the key issue is whether they'd be strong enough but they would draw from the Riverina and they all went OK this year with the exception of Tuggeranong

Whichever way you look at it, it seems almost impossible that more than one additional Sydney side can be admitted and I think due to their pathway it would have to be Baulkham Hills. They can be the third path for late bloomers like Rampe to make a late push for an AFL career outside the AFL club structure but I really only think Sydney needs one additional club. If we have a third second tier club in this city I believe it must be one that has a strong junior program.

Sure Sydney Uni will start squealing about the birthright to participate at the highest level and pillage clubs that do the development of juniors but too bad.

For once the interests of the game will put before the sense of entitlement that exists at Sydney Uni...(Cue the student to enter the fray)...

As an aside, I also believe the Baulkos ressies should not be playing in the SFL - throw your best side into one premier comp but not both.

My bets are Southport, Morningside, AN Other Brisbane side, 4 x ACT, Baulkham Hills.

Let's get this NEAFL set up properly and long term so that we can start rebuilding the SFL again.

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Clearly, if the AFL see the NEAFL as the strategic regional league required to grow the long term development of the northern states and NT then they need to fund and resource the comp properly.

The NEAFL will never have the crowds and traditional support of a SANFL or VFL, nothwithstanding that many of their games are just glorified trials against AFL reserves sides, so they need to foot the bill.

Surely Baulko aren't having to foot the annual Cairns trip?

[Pekay]

SFL (8 Teams - two grades) - North Shore, Manly, Pennant Hills, St George, UNSW, Wests, Campbelltown, UTS
SFA Div 1(8 Teams - two grades) - Sydney Uni, East Coast Eagles, Balmain, Wollongong, Sutherland, Parramatta, Penrith, Mac Uni
SFA Div 2 (8 teams - two grades) - Sydney Uni, UTS, UNSW, Blacktown, Randwick, Moorebank, Nor West, Camden
SFA Div 3 (8 teams - one grade) - Gosford plus various thirds teams

I was and am a strong advocate for the restructure as it saved the bacon of many clubs, ours included. But, I just keep coming back to this model and think yes it is time to go back to this.

I was chatting to the Gosford bloke I was playing on yesterday, and I asked if they were going to push for two teams next year. He mentioned it wasn't an issue of numbers for two teams, but more a stretch of resources, which under the current structure, would be impossible if they were split from week to week. I miss having our reserves upstairs at Bensons screaming slander at players from both teams.

Perhaps next year it's time to start again, and I think your model has tremendous merit. If you are one of those clubs that didn't win a flag during the restructure (Yes, my club is one!) well tough eggs, you had your chance. But to see a club like the Riff, from 2009 where they finished near the bottom of Div 3, to where they are now on AND off the field, has shown that divisionalisation has worked for the better. In my opinion anyway.

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I think Blacktown should be given a crack at Div 1 with their current and future list, but I'm not sure who to bring back to Div 2....