Match Thread. Grand Final!!! Swans v Lions.

[Kafka's Ghost]

After a long drive yesterday I'm back at the computer. Where do I start? On a positive, it's great to have RWO running reliably so I can get away from the Facebook lynch mobs. Thanks. My wife (who stayed in Sydney) asked how I was feeling during the game and I replied that I was reading obituaries of Maggie Smith as that was cheerier than lifting my head to watch the game. When it finally came to its catastrophic conclusion I replied that I was gutted and vindictive and wouldn't be disappointed if I heard Horse announce his retirement on Sunday.

On the bright side, I elected not to go to the 2024 Grand Final dinner - I attended in 2005 and 2012 and they were magical nights (even 2006 was okay after an honorable one point loss) but after 2014 I couldn't face that level of mass depression again. Then again, after walking 10 km "home" from the MCG in a red hot rage after 2016 I said I'd never attend another Grand Final but I was there for 2022 and 2024. This one really hurt as I thought two years of added maturity reversed the "too soon" problems of 2022 and I really expected us to win. Obviously the issues remain and significant changes need to be made throughout the club to remedy that. In 2005 Paul Roos pre-game message to the team was simple: "if you play your best football, you'll win" - and they did. That message, indeed the Bloods culture, has been lost and needs to be found again. That may need changes in the coaching panel and/or the players but it needs to be substantial.

I'm going to the Club Champion dinner this Friday. I don't want jokes from Adam Spencer and platitudes from our management. I want to be told what the way forward is going to be. Because doing the same thing over and over for the same devastating results will break the club - and may have already broken some players.

A final observation. After 2022 I fled the MCG after Dane's speech (he does give very good runners up speeches, if that's a positive) but on Saturday I stayed. I wanted to watch the Swans players' reaction to the loss. I was surprised that that many seemed deeply disappointed but not devastatingly heartbroken. I was a bit shocked. Maybe they had had the last quarter to accept the inevitable loss or maybe there was something more. Incidentally, I mentioned this later to my Melbourne host, a casual Tigers fan, who had a seat near the boundary and he replied "it's interesting you say that as I thought the same thing, they almost seemed accepting of their failure". As both of us are team leaders in our outdoor industry - and used to judging the spirit of the team in good and bad times - I'm merely reporting our judgement and have yet to determine what it means?

An excellent post, that sums up pretty much how I feel as well. I truly expected us to win this game, especially after an undermanned Swans outfit pushed Brisbane to the limit a few weeks ago. In 2022, strange as it may seem, I thought we were cooked going into the GF, and selecting Sam Reid a massive mistake, even from the outside looking in, just like selecting too many underdone players was in 2016. Despite everything going against us in that 2016 match, into the last quarter the scores were level, and as furious as I was with what had transpired, it was clear the team had given their all.
But after Saturday I am absolutely gutted. Only Fox and Rowbottom brought intensity. From the outset some, actually a lot, of our decisions were awful. Two Swans’ players alone on the wing, but Blakey goes for the cross-body miracle into the densely populated centre. Of course not an isolated incident, but it seemed typical of the mindset we were playing with, and this in the first quarter, when we were at least competitive. No forward press, no manning up, no playing for each other; it was the Western Bulldogs match at the SCG all over again.
I’ve now seen us lose the last three GFs by a combined 163 points. I’ll retain my membership, but if we make another GF, I’ll be staying home and watching on TV.

[Hotpotato]

Maybe the Swans coaches missed a few red flags. I trekked out
to Homebush to watch two teams who we might meet again in the decider Giants V Lions .
Did any Swans coaches go out there to watch this game live? Dunno.
The Lions miraculously pulled off a win, their form was now heading north, with adrenaline, now they had nothing to lose . I didnt realise Brisbane had so many skilled & agile players.
The Swans form had become patchy and Port wasnt
a really stern test.
My conclusion being The Swans coaches & players may have vastly underestimated the opponents in the Granny.
The Lions were a way better outfit on the day that
mattered most.

[mcs]

A final observation. After 2022 I fled the MCG after Dane's speech (he does give very good runners up speeches, if that's a positive) but on Saturday I stayed. I wanted to watch the Swans players' reaction to the loss. I was surprised that that many seemed deeply disappointed but not devastatingly heartbroken. I was a bit shocked. Maybe they had had the last quarter to accept the inevitable loss or maybe there was something more. Incidentally, I mentioned this later to my Melbourne host, a casual Tigers fan, who had a seat near the boundary and he replied "it's interesting you say that as I thought the same thing, they almost seemed accepting of their failure". As both of us are team leaders in our outdoor industry - and used to judging the spirit of the team in good and bad times - I'm merely reporting our judgement and have yet to determine what it means?

There is an article just today with quotes from Robbie Fox. Love Robbie as a player, and love how he has worked so hard to get to where he has - but it exactly sums up what is wrong culturally at the club at the moment.

"“We would like to win a grand final, but it won’t define us. You always have to take those learnings, and hopefully, everyone believes that good things are coming. It wasn’t this year, but hopefully, it’s in the years to come.”

On one level, I completely agree that one game shouldn't define how a squad or team is looked at - especially in a sport as tough as Aussie Rules footy. But the simple fact is - it does and always will.

That sort of mindset is a key reason (in my opinion of course) why we saw what we saw again on Saturday - they look to have learnt nothing from 2022.

Yes its a big achievement to make the last Saturday in September. But if you actually want to make history, go down in history and become a Premiership player, then by default that one game has to define you. It has to be an 'all in' outcome, not a 'we would like to win'. And I think that sort of attitude sadly permeates into what you saw late on Saturday (I'm sorry to admit I'm not a good fan, but I was long gone by that point - although I have subsequently watched the speeches). Yes we all respond to bad outcomes in different ways, but it says to me this squad currently doesn't have the mental fortitude needed to build the genuine desire to do everything needed to achieve success on that last day of the season - and when that condition exists, it is easy to just move on and go again.

It is now up to them to define themselves - at the moment most of the footy world sees them as flat track bullies, who are a laughing stock on the day that matters. If they are happy with that as a playing group as a legacy, they can keep on doing what they are doing. There will still be plenty of great moments along the way - there is too much talent and good people in the club for that not to happen. But their legacy ultimately, in the history books of AFL footy, will be as massive chokers on the biggest stage..... if I was lucky enough to be an AFL footballer with a chance to win the biggest prize in the game, I wouldn't be saying 'near enough is good enough'.

How many players out there on Saturday could honestly look back and say 'I left my all out there today'. Very, very few were anywhere near their best.

Maybe the Swans coaches missed a few red flags. I trekked out
to Homebush to watch two teams who we might meet again in the decider Giants V Lions .
Did any Swans coaches go out there to watch this game live? Dunno.
The Lions miraculously pulled off a win, their form was now heading north, with adrenaline, now they had nothing to lose . I didnt realise Brisbane had so many skilled & agile players.
The Swans form had become patchy and Port wasnt
a really stern test.
My conclusion being The Swans coaches & players may have vastly underestimated the opponents in the Granny.
The Lions were a way better outfit on the day that
mattered most.

Doesn't matter who your opponent is in a grand final, there are zero excuses for underestimating them.

The quality of the Lions list is undeniable - even with their poor start to the season this year, they were always going to be hard to beat if they got on a roll.

It is embarrassing if that conclusion holds (and I think a strong argument can be made that it does). Just another reflection on a culture missing any 'killer instinct' and a true desire to go all the way. Instead being happy with close enough is good enough as an outcome.

[UUaswan]

Too.much left to too few, like when we had that dry patch, if our elite aren't elite, the others get exposed

1 quick example is Amartey is clearly ourfwd but a few times this year he should have been put in the 2s with poor performance. Never happened.
Can't blame him when it matters. he is just doing what he did all year

[barry]

We can speculate forever on what went wrong, but I just don't think there is a rational reason for it. We have enough skilled players. We have a proven game plan. We beat the same team Brisbane beat in the same way (giants).

It can only be two things:
Our preparation went wrong before the game.
Or
Brisbane discovered a new gear during the finals. To beat giants and cats, they had to play Richmond-style helter skelter, and they found out they were bloody good at it

[Hotpotato]

Its the latter, the Lions form headed north , Swans form erratic .

[UUaswan]

We can speculate forever on what went wrong, but I just don't think there is a rational reason for it. We have enough skilled players. We have a proven game plan. We beat the same team Brisbane beat in the same way (giants).

It can only be two things:
Our preparation went wrong before the game.
Or
Brisbane discovered a new gear during the finals. To beat giants and cats, they had to play Richmond-style helter skelter, and they found out they were bloody good at it

Was erratic at times but composed is more the word, 100+marks isn't helter skelter

Win the contest take the ball away, disarm the Swans.

[dejavoodoo44]

There is an article just today with quotes from Robbie Fox. Love Robbie as a player, and love how he has worked so hard to get to where he has - but it exactly sums up what is wrong culturally at the club at the moment.

"“We would like to win a grand final, but it won’t define us. You always have to take those learnings, and hopefully, everyone believes that good things are coming. It wasn’t this year, but hopefully, it’s in the years to come.”

I've only just read that article and it seems an odd message to drum into players before a finals series. I'd consider something like that to be more appropriate for consoling someone after a loss. Maybe Robbie misconstrued what Emma Murray said? Or maybe it was a message that was tailored for Robbie, who was stressing out before the finals? If it was the latter, then it possibly worked.

And as far as I know, she did play an influential role in the Richmond premiership sides, by doing things like; getting Dustin Martin to concentrate on football, rather than family problems, and getting Damien Hardwick to delegate, instead of driving everyone crazy with his micromanaging.

Anyway, hopefully the players were also getting messages that were almost the opposite. Such as, you can define yourself as a Swans premiership winner. Or you can fulfil your dream and the dreams of all those involved in the club, by going as hard as possible on the day. Etc.

Of course, I'm only guessing what was said, but if the predominant message was, "It's cool, it won't define us", then that seems problematic.

[Ruck'n'Roll]

It is laughable in the extreme to believe any club would even consider replacing a coach of a team that won 19 games including two finals.

Some historical perspective, in case it helps.
Horse is now the only Swans coach to take us to 4 grand final losses. Many criticised his tactical nous. However, this years 19 wins from 25 games is a 70% success rate.
Horse was previously tied with Jack Bissett, with 3 grand final losses. Many criticised his tactical nous. However, that third year Jack had a 80% winning rate.

Replacing Horse may be laughable Big Cat (I'm too distressed to think atm), but I do know we did replace Jack Bissett after his 3rd losing granny.

Additional historical perspective
Some people have referred to the Jack Bissett years as the Golden Age of the Swans - I wonder if the Horse era will be labelled the Platinum Age some time?

[Industrial Fan]

Roos era > Longmire era.

Not fancy football but we always put up a fight. Our opponents knew to expect one too.

There’s not a team in the league that wouldn’t back themselves to win a flag against us. We’re a dream match up and that’s embarrassing.

[The Big Cat]

He should step aside to another role.
We know He isn't leaving but needs to handover for the good of the club.

It probably only a year earlier than planned but the time is right, let someone else lead and take a different role

You don’t change a coach who gets you to the last day. And nobody has suggested who that replacement should be. Yze, Nicks, Voss, Hinkley, Longmuir, Brad Scott etc? After all none of them have lost a grand final! Or maybe Ross Lyon - whoops he has lost two and won NONE and is considered a super coach.

[Merdo5555]

Maybe the Swans coaches missed a few red flags. I trekked out
to Homebush to watch two teams who we might meet again in the decider Giants V Lions .
Did any Swans coaches go out there to watch this game live? Dunno.
The Lions miraculously pulled off a win, their form was now heading north, with adrenaline, now they had nothing to lose . I didnt realise Brisbane had so many skilled & agile players.
The Swans form had become patchy and Port wasnt
a really stern test.
My conclusion being The Swans coaches & players may have vastly underestimated the opponents in the Granny.
The Lions were a way better outfit on the day that
mattered most.

Its a grand final underestimating your opposition is inexcusable. Am I surprised? No, when the Chair promises you a job where is the accountability where is the pressure.

[Merdo5555]

You don’t change a coach who gets you to the last day. And nobody has suggested who that replacement should be. Yze, Nicks, Voss, Hinkley, Longmuir, Brad Scott etc? After all none of the have lost a grand final! Or maybe Ross Lyon - whoops he has lost two and won NONE and is considered a super coach.

Rubbish you change a coach who can get his team to compete on Grand Final day. If you can get your players up for a GF your incapable of doing the job and should go.

This professional sport, you dont get a ribbon for participating you get a prize for winning.

You cite Ross Lyon did he get smashed in 2 grand finals. He got heavenly beaten in the replay but i think you can excuse that one as his team was well and truly done injury wise by then.

Has a Brad Scott team turned up and failed to compete on GF day. No,

Losing isnt the issue, failing to compete is! Simple either he didnt get the team up to play a competitive game or he did and they didnt translate it to the field, either way he is responsible and must go. Take the Chair who promises you a job for life with you.

No-one in any organisation should every be promised anything, accountability gets results, complacency gets you 2 embarrassing GF performances.

Worst of all the team proved it wasnt a talent issue, they nearly beat Brisbane away down 3 players.

Sick of the trust John club, The only trust you could have is another GF smashing!

[Merdo5555]

That is the point of following footy; that it is inconsequential in the larger scheme of things. We can direct our energy, both positive and negative, in ways we usually cannot in other social frameworks.

It's hard to comprehend how pathetic our pressure was when everyone knew it was the key to the game. Brisbane played like a team you would expect to play in a grand final. How can the Swans put ups suck little fight.

We were a high pressure team in the early part of the season, then slowly slipped away. We found that we could win games on scoring ability alone, while allowing the opposition to have the ball for a majority of the game. After going 13-1, we should remember that we finished the regular season 3-6. So we entered the finals in fairly poor form.

The players and coaches all said that our preparation was great, but clearly it was not. There seems to be some mental aspect of the game that we left behind and can't find our way back from. It's not understood internally, or one would think it would have been rectified.

I've been a Longmire fan for most of the journey, but am now thinking that it might be time for a change. To bring a team into the GH so ill-prepared to put up a fight, shows a serious deficiency somewhere beyond the players.

It wasn't that we lost that disappoints so much, but rather the way we lost. And it's hard to see how that gets gixed. It's not just a matter of shuffling around players.

PS: Sorry I don't post very often these days, but my vision is quite poor/ which has limited my ability to read and write.

An honorable loss would have been fine and the ride well worth it.

The embarrassing lack of energy, effort, intensity and anything resembling the bloods culture is inexcusable. The players are as equally toi blame as the coach but we cant sack all of them, we can sack the coach. Maybe that we will wake the organisation up to the point where they embrace the real bloods culture.

Could you imagine any of Paul Roos' teams performing like that. Those teams had a lot less talent but extracted every drop of it. And dont talk about 2012 for Loingmire that was Roos' team with some tactical tweaks.

Longmire is incapable of building a team with the real "bloods culture" required to compete in and win a GF. And if we arent hear to win what are we here for. Its competitive sport. Your not going to win every game or every GF but you want them compete especially in a GF!

[Merdo5555]

After a long drive yesterday I'm back at the computer. Where do I start? On a positive, it's great to have RWO running reliably so I can get away from the Facebook lynch mobs. Thanks. My wife (who stayed in Sydney) asked how I was feeling during the game and I replied that I was reading obituaries of Maggie Smith as that was cheerier than lifting my head to watch the game. When it finally came to its catastrophic conclusion I replied that I was gutted and vindictive and wouldn't be disappointed if I heard Horse announce his retirement on Sunday.

On the bright side, I elected not to go to the 2024 Grand Final dinner - I attended in 2005 and 2012 and they were magical nights (even 2006 was okay after an honorable one point loss) but after 2014 I couldn't face that level of mass depression again. Then again, after walking 10 km "home" from the MCG in a red hot rage after 2016 I said I'd never attend another Grand Final but I was there for 2022 and 2024. This one really hurt as I thought two years of added maturity reversed the "too soon" problems of 2022 and I really expected us to win. Obviously the issues remain and significant changes need to be made throughout the club to remedy that. In 2005 Paul Roos pre-game message to the team was simple: "if you play your best football, you'll win" - and they did. That message, indeed the Bloods culture, has been lost and needs to be found again. That may need changes in the coaching panel and/or the players but it needs to be substantial.

I'm going to the Club Champion dinner this Friday. I don't want jokes from Adam Spencer and platitudes from our management. I want to be told what the way forward is going to be. Because doing the same thing over and over for the same devastating results will break the club - and may have already broken some players.

A final observation. After 2022 I fled the MCG after Dane's speech (he does give very good runners up speeches, if that's a positive) but on Saturday I stayed. I wanted to watch the Swans players' reaction to the loss. I was surprised that that many seemed deeply disappointed but not devastatingly heartbroken. I was a bit shocked. Maybe they had had the last quarter to accept the inevitable loss or maybe there was something more. Incidentally, I mentioned this later to my Melbourne host, a casual Tigers fan, who had a seat near the boundary and he replied "it's interesting you say that as I thought the same thing, they almost seemed accepting of their failure". As both of us are team leaders in our outdoor industry - and used to judging the spirit of the team in good and bad times - I'm merely reporting our judgement and have yet to determine what it means?

It means that you have come to accept mediocrity. The fish rots from head down, when our Chair says the coach has a job for life that says everything; accountability and responsibility go out the door.

I called for Longmire's sacking after 2022, again not because we lost but because of how we lost.

Given there were no repercussions why is any surprised it happened again? If you set low standards dont be surprised you get low standards.

The organisation needs a massive shake up, the Chairman and coaching panel all need to go with new voices and new directions to be adopted. This will re-energise the playing group and give them a small chance of overcoming the psychological scars they have.