The official Swans are a @@@@@@ up bag of rabble thread....

[Legs Akimbo]

The 22-26 year old deficit can't be put down to not moving on players in the last season or so. It's down to deciding to trade for Hall and Jolly, in particular. Does anyone think those decisions were wrong? I suspect the drought would be up to 75 years by now if we hadn't.

It's also down to a poor drafting return in 2003-4 (on top of the Jolly trade). Willoughby was a bust, Schmidt is proving to be a long term investment (not in the good sense). The speculative late picks like Erikson and Smokey didn't pay off.

I don't think the trades for Richards and Mattner were mistakes. They may never be superstars but their skills are mostly adequate (admittedly both are capable of some howlers too). They are good solid players and if you compare them to typical players drafted with picks we used to get them (or directly with Schneider, in Mattner's case), they don't appear to be losses. Nor, at the ages we got them, do I think we've necessarily lost out on years of service if you look at average length of careers.



Agree, and as I wrote elsewhere, the process hasn't been helped by injuries not just to Thornton but to Schmidt and Laidlaw, Meredith, Vez's hampered pre-season and ongoing groin problems, maybe DOK's ongoing groin problems.

It's just a case of wait and see as to how many of those prove themselves capable of becoming very good AFL players. It's a pretty safe bet that they won't all. We just don't know who will and how good they could become. I don't think O'Keefe, Kirk or Craig Bolton were showing signs at their age of becoming AA type players.

Good points. Allow me to rehash...

1. The rebuild should have started in 2007. Several posters, myself included, have been saying that for a while now. A year was lost because of this mistake, which will turn out to be particularly detrimental over the coming few years, due to the loss of our older cohort - Hall, MOL, Kirk etc.

2. I do not agree that Mattner or Playfair have been worthwhile draftees. I said it at the time, and I say it again - neither should have been drafted given the broader situation of our list. Call me a heretic, but I do not rate Mattner at all. He is at best, an average backman in the true sense of the word, and too many of his disposals are clangers. Particularly damaging given how much of the ball he can get. Nor do I rate Richards as more than a garden variety utility of the sort that are a dime a dozen. Playfair will amount to nothing for the Swans.

Yes, drafting young players is a lottery. However, history suggests it leads to better outcomes than trading for fringe players from other clubs, which I regard both Mattner and Richards to be.

I am not, however, advocating massive list turnover in a short space, which invariably leads to disaster. Too late for that. My contention is that 2007 was a big mistake and I remain sceptical of Roos' draft strategy. We are now startint to pay a price for some of his dodgy ideas.

[connolly]

Not another one, surely there has been worse than that in your time as a supporter. Harden up old son/girl. Work through the pain and make sure you buy your seasons ticket next year.

What got me was Pies supporters don't know much about the game and don't know a lot of their players. Those around me were getting into them in the last quarter when they made a couple of mistakes, but were unable to nominate the player; weird mob.

The heady mix of alcohol and anti-depressants.

[liz]

2. I do not agree that Mattner or Playfair have been worthwhile draftees.

We can agree to disagree on Mattner.

I didn't mention Playfair in my post, but though I share your reservations over his value, what did he cost us? A spot on the rookie list in all likelihood. Last year's draft was said to be shallow and it seemed like the club decided just to use three ND picks. They were guaranteed Bird with the last pick, whether that was the 3rd round pick they traded to Geelong or the 4th round pick they used.

[Nico]

We can agree to disagree on Mattner.

I didn't mention Playfair in my post, but though I share your reservations over his value, what did he cost us? A spot on the rookie list in all likelihood. Last year's draft was said to be shallow and it seemed like the club decided just to use three ND picks. They were guaranteed Bird with the last pick, whether that was the 3rd round pick they traded to Geelong or the 4th round pick they used.

Liz, whilst we failed to move on the oldies we did manage to move on 2 in the 22-26 age bracket, Schneider and Dempster. Schneider kicked 4 last week and just slotted his second today. Food for thought on our list management. It looks to have bitten us on the bum big time, not for what they might do to us when we play them, but loss of depth in a year where once again we have fallen back to the oldies.

[liz]

Liz, whilst we failed to move on the oldies we did manage to move on 2 in the 22-26 age bracket, Schneider and Dempster. Schneider kicked 4 last week and just slotted his second today. Food for thought on our list management. It looks to have bitten us on the bum big time, not for what they might do to us when we play them, but loss of depth in a year where once again we have fallen back to the oldies.

I was disappointed when we traded Schneider last year - probably more so than you given you'd expressed your frustrations over his lack of consistency. I'm less disappointed we traded him now, because he's shown that same inconsistency and ability to fade out of the side this year. Plus if he'd stayed on the list, we probably wouldn't have seen Moore play this year. Moore has his faults, which he may or may not be able to improve on, and doesn't have the zip of Schneider, but he did nab three goals yesterday.

[Legs Akimbo]

Liz, whilst we failed to move on the oldies we did manage to move on 2 in the 22-26 age bracket, Schneider and Dempster. Schneider kicked 4 last week and just slotted his second today. Food for thought on our list management. It looks to have bitten us on the bum big time, not for what they might do to us when we play them, but loss of depth in a year where once again we have fallen back to the oldies.

Dempster has been far from shabby for the Saints this year too.

As for not losing anything for Playfair, the art of working the bottom end of the draft is turning players over. Getting them on the last, having a look and then keeping or moving them on. Every player of a known quality (or lack thereof) we draft such as Playfair has an opportunity cost, however unquantifiable. Imagine if we had drafter Playfair of yesteryear instead of Goodes at 56 or whatever it was, way back when. I'd rather test a known unknown and fail than endure a known known with no upside taking a spot on our list.

[Nico]

I was disappointed when we traded Schneider last year - probably more so than you given you'd expressed your frustrations over his lack of consistency. I'm less disappointed we traded him now, because he's shown that same inconsistency and ability to fade out of the side this year. Plus if he'd stayed on the list, we probably wouldn't have seen Moore play this year. Moore has his faults, which he may or may not be able to improve on, and doesn't have the zip of Schneider, but he did nab three goals yesterday.

Agreed I was critical of his inconsistency and lack of intensity, however, I was merely making the point that we moved these players on yet kept the likes of Crouch and Mathews.

[liz]

We traded Schneider because he had some trade currency, unlike Mathews or Crouch. And because he was seen as having able replacements already on the list and not getting a game. Who knows if it was the right decision or not, but it kinda made sense.

[Wazza]

Moore has his faults, which he may or may not be able to improve on, and doesn't have the zip of Schneider, but he did nab three goals yesterday.

Moore will have to kick 3 every game he plays becasue he doesnt give us much else - he cant chase doesnt have the pace or engine looked spent after a couple of chases last night - play a fast HB on him and we will pay.

He is also selfish and doesnt give on the first occasion - one of his goals came from a lucky free when he didnt give and tried to break a tackle, the other goal he could have passed off .

No defensive pressure he needs to kick 3 -4 every week...as u might have guessed not a fan, cant see both Ves and Moore in the same team when all injuries return... IMHO Ves is a better option as a small/mid Fwd.




Waz

[liz]

I don't get the "Moore is selfish" line. His stamina is an issue. His kicking for goal has been an issue this year. (I think he's inherently better around goal than he's shown us.) But selfish? For me, selfish can be dishing off a handball to a player with no chance just to avoid taking some contact. Watch Geelong play. To a man they hold onto the ball long enough to draw contact and then dish it off. True, their decision making skills and timing are perfection at the moment, but it also comes down to intent. Moore is a smart player. He knows his (relative) strengths and taking contact is one of them, whether to dish off at the right time or to break a tackle.

Was he being selfish when he kicked that great tackle busting goal at AAMI? Maybe in your eyes he was. In which case I hope he continues being selfish. I wish Buchanan had been selfish last night rather than trying to find a team mate on a short lead inside 50m.

To me, selfish is Hall's berating of team mates if they don't kick it to him. Or his giving away of cheap frees when we're in possession. I'm a Hall supporter and I don't mind his aggro at the contest, even when it does cost a free against him. But that aggro off the ball pisses me off no end. He's been in pretty good form since he returned but he speaks in the media about just playing his role, not having to be the one who kicks the goals, and then blasts youngsters, like Ves, who are trying to learn to make decisions on taking the right option if that right option isn't always him.

[Dogzbody]

Its tough where we are at..... but in all seriousness "SUCK IT UP"

For those of us who went through 92/93 as Swans supporters....this is not even close to how bad things were then.

I cried when plugger belted that behind in 96 against the bombers.....and I bawled in 2005 when we won!

Times will be tough in the next 2 seasons but I don't think we should be slamming our whole group.

If someone decides to go and get Ben Cousins to Sydney...that would be a good start. Work with the good ones we have got and develop some youngsters, with a "nothing to lose attitude" I think you would find that we will do OK.

I know it sounds simple, but chuck out the expectations, rebuild and play every game as if its our last.....could be enjoyable, just for the simplistic factor of here we are....LETS PLAY!

[Wazza]

Was he being selfish when he kicked that great tackle busting goal at AAMI? Maybe in your eyes he was. In which case I hope he continues being selfish. I wish Buchanan had been selfish last night rather than trying to find a team mate on a short lead inside 50m.
.

Respect your opinion but I also stick to mine - to me he is a selfish player in what I have seen this season.

Its a long way to go back to that AAMI game to find a highlight isnt it?

So where does Moore fit in? apart from playing HF / FP and given his tank is struggling in this role, my question on Moore remains the same - can we afford to play a smallish slow player in a perm FP/HF? Look at Moore he may get a little fitter but definately no faster - the game wont get any slower.

Cheers

Waz

[ScottH]

Some interesting stats from the games before and after the break.
I know we've played some tough games since the break, but we really have leaked some points since the break.

[swansrule100]

bit harsh on mattner to say he was a dud selection.

His last month has not been great but he would be top 5-6 for the best and fairest. He has been stuck out of position in recent times, least he has a dip.

Id like to see him in the midfield or at least half back, not stuck down in the goal square and not kicking in.

Kicking in for sydney though, must be one of the hardest tasks in world sport at the moment.

[NMWBloods]

bit harsh on mattner to say he was a dud selection.

His last month has not been great but he would be top 5-6 for the best and fairest. He has been stuck out of position in recent times, least he has a dip.

Id like to see him in the midfield or at least half back, not stuck down in the goal square and not kicking in.

Kicking in for sydney though, must be one of the hardest tasks in world sport at the moment.

No doubt. At one stage from the Coventry end he had no one to kick to so he played on and kept waiting for a lead but all the Swans players stood around like statues so in the end he was pushed and his kick off the right boot went OOB.