Trading talk thread

[Primmy]

We can send him to LRT's barber who appears to have finally got his mop controlled into a grown up hair do. (Me I should talk. I am still looking for the "ideal" cut, each and every time.) Least its better than Sherman's rat chewed do.

[sydneyswans1989]

3AW just announced that Lovett is on the cards again for the Swans. I would really prefer if we didn't chase Lovett but obviously Roos is looking for the run.

[Nico]

I think the main reason we're often getting beaten in the clearances is not because we lack the extractors, but because we have too many of one type, which is the slow, bottom-of-the-pack type. It seems to me that we often get first hand to the ball, but rarely have the outside players to make first use of the ball effective. Paul Hasleby is another player like Kirk, Bolton, etc, that gets hands to the ball, and then dishes it off. We have too many givers, not enough receivers. I'm pretty sure that statistically, we win a fair few clearances, but you rarely see those clearances translate to effective kicks to the forwardline. Hasleby is not the sort of player than would help that, as good as he is. We need either smart outside receivers to complement Kirk, Jude et al, or allround players (e.g. Judds, Gabletts, Blacks, etc, which are obviously out of our reach).

The problem is we don't get first hands on the ball at centre bounces. Kirk is usually tagging to stop a player getting his hands off, and Bolton does a lot of blocking but rarely gets his hands on it first, unless of course he falls on top of the footy thus creating a pack, whereby no one gets it out.

We need quick minded and quick footed players who read the play in a twinkling of an eye to get clean clearances. We don't have them. Against Geelong and Brisbane when games were there to be won we got spanked, and our players were at times more than 5 metres from a player in the clear. Essendon won the game in the 2nd Q against St Kilda because they got very clean clearances and scored heavily directly from them.

[BSA5]

The problem is we don't get first hands on the ball at centre bounces. Kirk is usually tagging to stop a player getting his hands off, and Bolton does a lot of blocking but rarely gets his hands on it first, unless of course he falls on top of the footy thus creating a pack, whereby no one gets it out.

We need quick minded and quick footed players who read the play in a twinkling of an eye to get clean clearances. We don't have them. Against Geelong and Brisbane when games were there to be won we got spanked, and our players were at times more than 5 metres from a player in the clear. Essendon won the game in the 2nd Q against St Kilda because they got very clean clearances and scored heavily directly from them.

I think you may have put 2 and 2 together and come up with 5 here. It's true a lot of our players are taggers, blockers, etc. It's true that we rarely get the ball out of congestion quickly and to advantage. But it's not because our players aren't winning clearances. Jude Bolton has 111 clearances this season, averaging 5 a game. Brett Kirk is averaging 4.9. Ryan O'Keefe since his move to the midfield in Rd 6 is averaging 4.8. Judd, one of the best clearance players in the competition, is averaging 5.5. Brad Sewell averages 5.2. Simon Black averages 5, as does Sam Mitchell. Gary Ablett Jnr is averaging 4.6. Joel Selwood averages 3.9.

As you can see, our top clearances winners are absolutely fine. The problem is that once we get the clearance, we don't use it properly. When the opposition gets a clearance, if they aren't shut down they speed away and use the ball and make us look like snails. When we get the clearance, unless we've got Goodes in there, McVeigh is the only player we've got that can actually make use of the ball immediately. Too often when we get first possession of the ball, we are stationary and handpass off to another stationary teammate, who in turn handpasses it out, and we slowly and nerve-wrackingly move it out by hand, often resulting in a turnover or another stoppage, or we go backwards to go forwards, which is fine considering the players we have, but we'd be better off with more players that can take it forward from the stoppage.

[DST]

As BAA5 said, getting the clearances has not been a problem it is how we have used the football once we have won it that has been the issue.

That is why McVeigh is critically important to our team, Hannaberry will be next year and why we will draft with our first pick a midfiedler not with pace but exceptional decision making and disposal skills.

I know you need good forwards and defenders, but in all honesty West Coast showed in 2005 and 2006 that you can go a long long way with a midfield that can win, carry and dispose of the football well.

Our list management team and coaching staff look to be leaning towards trying to build this model.

DST

[hammo]

I think you may have put 2 and 2 together and come up with 5 here. It's true a lot of our players are taggers, blockers, etc. It's true that we rarely get the ball out of congestion quickly and to advantage. But it's not because our players aren't winning clearances. Jude Bolton has 111 clearances this season, averaging 5 a game. Brett Kirk is averaging 4.9. Ryan O'Keefe since his move to the midfield in Rd 6 is averaging 4.8. Judd, one of the best clearance players in the competition, is averaging 5.5. Brad Sewell averages 5.2. Simon Black averages 5, as does Sam Mitchell. Gary Ablett Jnr is averaging 4.6. Joel Selwood averages 3.9.

I'd be interested to know how many more stoppages Sydney has per game than other clubs though. I'd suggest that skews the averages.

[DST]

I'd be interested to know how many more stoppages Sydney has per game than other clubs though. I'd suggest that skews the averages.

Agree, we like to create stoppages and then win them as we are very good at it.

But what was noticeable even when Roos took over mid season in 2002, that we were extremely clean from the take away, made good decisions and rarely gave the ball back to hurt our defenders.

That is an area that has dropped off (or other teams have targeted) and consequently our inside 50's and scoring dried up and our defenders were left one on one more often to our detriment.

I have no issue with our style of man on man, stoppage based control set-up just that we need to be able to go back to executing how we use it once we win it. Solve this and we are back in the game in 2010 and beyond.

DST

[BSA5]

I'd be interested to know how many more stoppages Sydney has per game than other clubs though. I'd suggest that skews the averages.

Perhaps, though many of those stoppages would occur without a clearance from the previous one occurring (e.g. ball up, fumbled, no clean possession, stacks on, ball up). In any case, to have our top 5 clearance winners all averaging about 5 a game, McVeigh who doesn't always play in the guts (sometimes moves to wing or half/forward to play as a link-man and utilise his engine) averages 4.1, and Craig Bird who probably spent 5% of every game actually in the guts (the rest of the time he was on the wing) averaging 3.1 (he will be an absolute clearance machine next year if he gets decent game time and Roos plays him in the guts), we're doing fine in that department.

EDIT: Just looked at some stats. In the 22 H&A games this year, the Swans won the clearance count 11/22 times, compared to just 8/22 wins. That alone suggests that not only is our clearance-winning ability acceptable (not great, but middle of the road), but compared to other aspects, is somewhat of a strength. Overall, clearances for are 818, clearances against 822. If you take an average of the CF:CA % from each game, on average we actually win (101.48%) (I took an average of each individual game as otherwise games in which there was a high clearance count have a greater weight; this is also how point percentages should be calculated). So yeah, we definitely aren't behind the 8-ball in actually getting the ball. I wouldn't call it a strength, but it's not a weakness. There are other aspects of our game we should concentrate on improving, like our ball use, before we look at increasing the number of clearances we get.

[BSA5]

Agree, we like to create stoppages and then win them as we are very good at it.

But what was noticeable even when Roos took over mid season in 2002, that we were extremely clean from the take away, made good decisions and rarely gave the ball back to hurt our defenders.

That is an area that has dropped off (or other teams have targeted) and consequently our inside 50's and scoring dried up and our defenders were left one on one more often to our detriment.

I have no issue with our style of man on man, stoppage based control set-up just that we need to be able to go back to executing how we use it once we win it. Solve this and we are back in the game in 2010 and beyond.

DST

That's because back then we had guys like Maxfield and Williams, and Goodes was playing on the ball. Buchy was in top form off the wing. Even having Fossie around helped (I reckon we've missed him more than we realise). These blokes added a bit of outside forward run to our midfield that we now lack. McVeigh has stepped up, Jack looks like he could be an in/out mid, but at the moment he's playing as a tagger..... who else?

[ugg]

Restless Andrew Lovett eyes Essendon exit | The Australian

Ruckman Mark Seaby is certain to join Sydney, but so far specific details between the Eagles and the Swans have not been worked out.

Mmmm

[Primmy]

That's because back then we had guys like Maxfield and Williams, and Goodes was playing on the ball. Buchy was in top form off the wing. Even having Fossie around helped (I reckon we've missed him more than we realise). These blokes added a bit of outside forward run to our midfield that we now lack. McVeigh has stepped up, Jack looks like he could be an in/out mid, but at the moment he's playing as a tagger..... who else?

Once again we are on the same page BSA. I have often wondered if the mob around me have noticed the difference in how our game is played by the loss of Fossie. Slipping in along the wing. We are missing the natural "assassins" that we had, aren't we. Those players who slipped in under the radar and quietly deliver. Always rated Fossie, and Benny too. They did a hell of a lot more than they have been credited with.

If Buchy and Mal get their mojo back we would have a couple more. Maxfield wasn't really rated by other clubs, but I think we could see just (and revere) what sort of player we had, along with Willow.

I guess it is time for other boys in the mix to make their own history. The quiet achievers that slip under the radar. Its possible Smiffy will come into contention in that role. And I wouldn't be surprised if Gilchrist would too, if they pick him up this draft. Gordon isn't silent.

I would never assign the role of silent assassin to Vespa for some reason
It could go to Hanners, except he has already created his own name in this game, and it looks like we already know what we have there.

The player I am talking about is the one rated by the inner circle and ignored by the opposition. He's out there, I just can't remember who he is at present!

[Armchair Coach]

Josh Gibson not appealing to anyone? Defender. Young. Out of contract. Maybe some of our former Nth Melb players should have a word with him?

[Captain]

Glad we are (potentially) getting Seaby. Think he is in a very similar position as to when we got Jolly.

[Cardinal]

[QUOTE=BSA5;458055] Even having Fossie around helped (I reckon we've missed him more than we realise). QUOTE]

Having his spot on the list at the expense of Cuz didn't.

[caj23]

I'd take that article with a grain of salt

As if the Lions have already agreed to trade their 3rd rounder for Raines,
they are still in the finals FFS

It's very unlikely that any trade deals would be organised yet.