Our Forward structure

[Bloody Hell]

LRT kicks enough goals and creates enough goals to justify his place. At present, we don't have a FF capable of kicking bags of goals. That's just a fact. Richards or Grundy aren't going to kick more goals than LRT, but LRT is working as a resting ruckman and FF because at least he's trapping the ball in there, allowing other players a chance. That is an underrated ability. It's unconventional, but with our current forward stocks, unconventional is what we're going to have to go with.

He is serviceable, I don't dispute that, but how can you definitively state there are no better, or other options? Why not Grundy or AJ or White (as Stella points out)?

And to be clear it's the FF position we are talking about so the points are purely hypothetical. If LRT wasn't the 2nd ruck there is no way he would be playing forward.

And LRT doesn't kick like a backman at all. He is a very good set shot for goal.

Did you see his attempted snap from general play on the weekend?

He was the backiest looking backman playing forward I've ever seen.

[BSA5]

Hey BSA5 and Big Al, why don't you hep cats read this post and lemme know your thoughts?

My thoughts? That LRT has kicked as many goals as White, but has taken more marks, created more goals for other players, and allowed fewer rebounds.

He is serviceable, I don't dispute that, but how can you definitively state there are no better, or other options? Why not Grundy or AJ or White (as Stella points out)?

And to be clear it's the FF position we are talking about so the points are purely hypothetical. If LRT wasn't the 2nd ruck there is no way he would be playing forward.

White has been tried and has failed. Grundy has been tried and has failed. AJ probably doesn't have the size to play FF. LRT probably wouldn't kick many more goals than these others, but he doesn't kick less, and he brings things to the table that these guys don't.

And it's not hypothetical. When LRT is resting in the forwardline, he is playing FF. When he goes into the ruck, either Reid or Mumford go to FF. But the important point is that whenever LRT is up forward, he's playing as a FF.

Did you see his attempted snap from general play on the weekend?

He was the backiest looking backman playing forward I've ever seen.

Have you seen his set shots this year? Or his classy goal in which he turned Merrett inside out in the goalsquare? One bad snap at goal and you're writing off his goalkicking? Bull@@@@. Even Lockett kicked it like a backman on occasions. LRT has kicked 12 goals 4 this year, and you're telling me he's no good kicking for goal. Seriously?

And I'm not trying to say that LRT is a good FF. Just that he's the best we've got, at least while Pyke is injured. I'd rather see Pyke lining up at FF and rotating through the ruck than LRT, but while Pyke is out/getting match fitness in the ressies, LRT is the man for the job.

[Big Al]

Is it easier, though, to make good position or decisions against weaker opposition?

True so you would expect Jesse to do these things in the NEAFL which unfortunately he hasn't been. Last weekend was the best I've seen from him this year. As I said earlier he played smart football which was terrific to see.

[Big Al]

And I'm not trying to say that LRT is a good FF. Just that he's the best we've got, at least while Pyke is injured. I'd rather see Pyke lining up at FF and rotating through the ruck than LRT, but while Pyke is out/getting match fitness in the ressies, LRT is the man for the job.

My thoughts also.

[Bloody Hell]

My thoughts? That LRT has kicked as many goals as White, but has taken more marks, created more goals for other players, and allowed fewer rebounds.



White has been tried and has failed. Grundy has been tried and has failed. AJ probably doesn't have the size to play FF. LRT probably wouldn't kick many more goals than these others, but he doesn't kick less, and he brings things to the table that these guys don't.

How has White failed? You say immediately before this that LRT and White are similar. Has LRT failed? Missed the games Grundy played FF this year. Why not give AJ a go? Aren't we trying to find a solution? I don't think anyone see's LRT as the long term option. For me the options are:

1. Jesse White
2. LJ puts on 15kg over Christmas
3. We have 4 quality tall defenders playing in the team - one of them. Not LRT. As stated above I think AJ or Grundy could be effective.
4. We trade for someone.
5. We draft someone - probably mature age

And it's not hypothetical. When LRT is resting in the forwardline, he is playing FF. When he goes into the ruck, either Reid or Mumford go to FF. But the important point is that whenever LRT is up forward, he's playing as a FF.

This thread is about the Forward Structure. LRT is in the forward line as the second ruck. If he wasn't the second ruck he wouldn't be there, he'd be in defense.

Have you seen his set shots this year? Or his classy goal in which he turned Merrett inside out in the goalsquare? One bad snap at goal and you're writing off his goalkicking? Bull@@@@. Even Lockett kicked it like a backman on occasions. LRT has kicked 12 goals 4 this year, and you're telling me he's no good kicking for goal. Seriously?

I'm not saying any of that. I'm saying he isn't a natural forward, though effective. It was like the first time he'd attempted a snap. Show me a forward who can't kick around their body.

His value to the team is in defense. I can't describe anything LRT does as classy.

And I'm not trying to say that LRT is a good FF. Just that he's the best we've got, at least while Pyke is injured. I'd rather see Pyke lining up at FF and rotating through the ruck than LRT, but while Pyke is out/getting match fitness in the ressies, LRT is the man for the job.

Agree re: Pyke, but would prefer to see a stay at home FF as well as a tall resting in the pocket.

[stellation]

I must say, the two of you have dissapointed me with your discussion of this important point.

[BSA5]

How has White failed? You say immediately before this that LRT and White are similar. Has LRT failed? Missed the games Grundy played FF this year. Why not give AJ a go? Aren't we trying to find a solution? I don't think anyone see's LRT as the long term option. For me the options are:

1. Jesse White
2. LJ puts on 15kg over Christmas
3. We have 4 quality tall defenders playing in the team - one of them. Not LRT. As stated above I think AJ or Grundy could be effective.
4. We trade for someone.
5. We draft someone - probably mature age

Why not LRT? You keep saying "not LRT", and yet LRT has been demonstrably effective. Grundy has played forward in the past, and was moved to the backline for a reason. AJ is skinny, his main strength is reading the flight of the ball. Great for a defender, not so useful for a forward who should be running AT the ball. Same reason Teddy is a better defender than forward. We'd also lose AJ's defensive ability and flexibility. I don't think we can understate how important AJ is to our defence right now, he gives us a flexibility down back that we haven't had since Craig Bolton in 09.

And I said LRT's goal output is similar to White's (slightly higher, but against slightly weaker opposition overall). In other facets, LRT trumps White, and by quite a margin. Everything from marks taken, to tackles made, to one percenters, to stoppages forced.... everything. He's better at shutting down opposition ruckmen around the ground, he's better at creating opportunities for his other forwards, he's better at getting up the ground and taking marks. White failed because his goal output wasn't enough to make up for everything else. LRT succeeds because he does everything else better.

This thread is about the Forward Structure. LRT is in the forward line as the second ruck. If he wasn't the second ruck he wouldn't be there, he'd be in defense.

Are you sure about that? We have three settled tall defenders: Richards, Grundy and Johnson. Who makes way? Our key defenders are arguably our strongest and most settled part of the team, messing with that is asking for trouble. I can't see LRT moving into defence again this year, barring injury to one of our three current key defenders.

And besides which, with the sub rule, the second ruck and the forward structure and inextricable. At the moment, we have a system where our second ruck, when not rucking, IS our full forward. When he is rucking, he's replaced either by the first ruckman, or our CHF (Reid). Sometimes Goodes floats through there too, but he's mostly up the ground.

I'm not saying any of that. I'm saying he isn't a natural forward, though effective. It was like the first time he'd attempted a snap. Show me a forward who can't kick around their body.

His value to the team is in defense. I can't describe anything LRT does as classy.

So let me get this straight.... you've admitted he's effective, yet you still don't want him forward because he doesn't look classy? Seriously? Because LRT doesn't look the part, his value can only be in defence?

Agree re: Pyke, but would prefer to see a stay at home FF as well as a tall resting in the pocket.

Well then the best stay at home FF we've got right now is LRT, so get used to it. Probably better putting LRT in a pocket and having Pyke in the goalsquare, and LRT moves into the goalsquare when Pyke rucks.

[Bloody Hell]

Why not LRT? You keep saying "not LRT", and yet LRT has been demonstrably effective. Grundy has played forward in the past, and was moved to the backline for a reason. AJ is skinny, his main strength is reading the flight of the ball. Great for a defender, not so useful for a forward who should be running AT the ball. Same reason Teddy is a better defender than forward. We'd also lose AJ's defensive ability and flexibility. I don't think we can understate how important AJ is to our defence right now, he gives us a flexibility down back that we haven't had since Craig Bolton in 09.

There's a difference between being effective and being a force to be reckoned with. Grundy played forward about 5 years ago for a few games, kicked 3 goals on debut. Since then his bodywork and contested marking has improved out of sight. Plus he has the ability to take amazing speccies on peoples heads, which is always enjoyable. I have said before I'd like to see this happen - and with the four key defenders, don't buy into the Peter and Paul argument.

AJ could be anything, I don't know. I wouldn't be limiting him. I don't think Richards is a good forward.

And I said LRT's goal output is similar to White's (slightly higher, but against slightly weaker opposition overall). In other facets, LRT trumps White, and by quite a margin. Everything from marks taken, to tackles made, to one percenters, to stoppages forced.... everything. He's better at shutting down opposition ruckmen around the ground, he's better at creating opportunities for his other forwards, he's better at getting up the ground and taking marks. White failed because his goal output wasn't enough to make up for everything else. LRT succeeds because he does everything else better.

I don't know what will happen with White, but I think he has been a bit maligned this year. Being dropped twice and then coming back both times in extremely wet conditions did him no favours. Will be interesting to see where he stands after the off season. I don't think we'll see him again this year.

Are you sure about that? We have three settled tall defenders: Richards, Grundy and Johnson. Who makes way? Our key defenders are arguably our strongest and most settled part of the team, messing with that is asking for trouble. I can't see LRT moving into defence again this year, barring injury to one of our three current key defenders.

And besides which, with the sub rule, the second ruck and the forward structure and inextricable. At the moment, we have a system where our second ruck, when not rucking, IS our full forward. When he is rucking, he's replaced either by the first ruckman, or our CHF (Reid). Sometimes Goodes floats through there too, but he's mostly up the ground.

If you consider the way LRT got his current gig, he was injured and couldn't break into the defense as the three you mention had it sewn up. White got dropped and LRT slotted in. So no, nothing will probably change this year.

However I think most agree that Mike Pyke is the No.1 choice for the second ruck role. His return could potentially have the greatest bearing on the structure of the team. It will be interesting to see the results when/if this happens.

So let me get this straight.... you've admitted he's effective, yet you still don't want him forward because he doesn't look classy? Seriously? Because LRT doesn't look the part, his value can only be in defence?

I don't like him as FF, because he's not a FF. There's one goal he kicked after the siren that sticks in my mind where he busted out on a lead and took a great contested mark falling away from his opponent, then went back and slotted it. That was a good FF's goal. If he starts doing that regularly or starts pulling down some screamers I'll give it away.

The fact that he can lock the ball in etc, while great attributes shouldn't be the reason a FF is selected. I like LRT as a defender. Probably the best at spoiling in the team and the best at completely shutting down an opposition tall.

The FF we've got right now is LRT, so get used to it. Probably better putting LRT in a pocket and having Pyke in the goalsquare, and LRT moves into the goalsquare when Pyke rucks.

Edited for accuracy! And I am getting used to it. I was of the impression that most saw LRT as a band-aid solution, but this obviously isn't the case.

[Bloody Hell]

I must say, the two of you have dissapointed me with your discussion of this important point.

Chime in at any time!

[Melbourne_Blood]

I agreee, i see LRT as a band-aid solution to our forward line. . He is not going to win you a game off his boot, ever, but he could save you a game with his fist. He's doing an okay job, sure, no dispute there, but if everyone in the team was doing an okay job, we wouldn't be much of a footy side at all.

I dont know what the solution is to this in terms of a forward to replace LRT, but saying we cant make room for him in defence is incorrect. Drop Tadgh. Play AJ as a more attacking rebounding defender ( which i think he's been doing a bit more of lately, and i see this as his role in the side ideally) . Bring LRT back to CHB or FB with either of Ted or Grundy to take the other tall forward and the other to roam about and take a few marks from opposition kicks ( A Maxwell type of role ).

[wolftone57]

I agreee, i see LRT as a band-aid solution to our forward line. . He is not going to win you a game off his boot, ever, but he could save you a game with his fist. He's doing an okay job, sure, no dispute there, but if everyone in the team was doing an okay job, we wouldn't be much of a footy side at all.

I dont know what the solution is to this in terms of a forward to replace LRT, but saying we cant make room for him in defence is incorrect. Drop Tadgh. Play AJ as a more attacking rebounding defender ( which i think he's been doing a bit more of lately, and i see this as his role in the side ideally) . Bring LRT back to CHB or FB with either of Ted or Grundy to take the other tall forward and the other to roam about and take a few marks from opposition kicks ( A Maxwell type of role ).

I agree with this and Teddy does that role really well. I have just been using super glue & it goes everywhere so if I stuff up it is because I can't feel the keys due to the super glue on my fingers, that's my excuse & I am sticking to it. I think either Spangher or belive it or not Everritt will be our FF eventually. Everritt has the height & when he has the confidence leads really well. Harren in the resies might make it but Al, Ugg or Liz would know better than me. But LRT put him back where he belongs he loves it there.

[Hartijon]

"Can anyone explain how our forward line is supposed to work? It seems makeshift and chaotic to me "

I wrote this 3 months ago. Failure to set up a structure ,failure to have players in set positions,failure to put in forward players who can lead,failure to develop our kicking skills(Its just as bad as it was 3 months ago) has now all compounded on the team.

No forward line=no scoreboard pressure= losing games we should win.

[Rob-bloods]

"Can anyone explain how our forward line is supposed to work? It seems makeshift and chaotic to me "

I wrote this 3 months ago. Failure to set up a structure ,failure to have players in set positions,failure to put in forward players who can lead,failure to develop our kicking skills(Its just as bad as it was 3 months ago) has now all compounded on the team.

No forward line=no scoreboard pressure= losing games we should win.

Harti I'm still with you, an appalling setup and we go on with the same old crap week after week. We don't change anything around so let's imagine the opposing defensive coach....hmm they kick long speculators to Reid, LRT averaging around 3 possessions per week, Goodes dangerous but poor goal kicking other most dangerous forward the same height as Damien Oliver (McGlynn) should be an easy week on the track.

I am very concerned about cold starts and lack of invention in our coaching, we may not have great cattle but can't the coaches try something at times?

[ScottH]

"Can anyone explain how our forward line is supposed to work? It seems makeshift and chaotic to me "

I wrote this 3 months ago. Failure to set up a structure ,failure to have players in set positions,failure to put in forward players who can lead,failure to develop our kicking skills(Its just as bad as it was 3 months ago) has now all compounded on the team.

No forward line=no scoreboard pressure= losing games we should win.

Pretty much it. Tigers had all the numbers back and no swans in sight.

[dimelb]

One problem is that we rotate people through the forward line in different positions so that there is no consistent idea of who will be where. I can't think it helps.