Now for ...

[On-Baller]

The big worry for me with Jesse is that will he have the same drive in the future when his career isnt seemingly on the line. Reid seems to have been much maligned but get him in the same forward line as Tippet and Goodes and youll see a different player. I believe Jesse will move on of his own accord if he is advised correctly because eventually unless he steps up another level he will be overtaken by others at the club. Only way id keep White is as a permanent wing and he would need to build Goodes like endurance for that,dont think he will ever have the tank.

Possible Outs- Mummy,White,Mcglynn,Shaw And of course Bolts and Marty retired.

We need to throw everything at Mummy, Shaw may just be let down by his body[hope im wrong], Benny while hard at it has really bad disposal and decision making, and well Jesse i think will want to leave.

[goswannies]

I am not sure about Dick as his delivery is quite poor but he has one year to go.

Shooting blanks?

[sharp9]

We only have one problem, really, but it is a very complex one. When we win uncontested ball we win the game. Up until the Richmond game we did this...and (2012 GF a perfect example) we also managed to stop other teams getting the ball. When we lose the uncontested possessions we get smashed. in the contest v Hawthorn the MAIN problem was that Mitchell and Sewell were getting uncontested possessions...on 5 metres from a large group of players maybe but enough that we just could not stop the next posession....and then the next....and then the next.......whereas our inside mids had as many possessions as the Hawks but they couldn't get them to the outside of the contest. When we "run in waves" a la the West Coast game we usually win pretty comfortably. So that's all we need to do by March :-) The question is.....did we just run out of gas? If so is that because we don't run enough players through the middle to keep the stars fresh?

For the first time since I started following the Swans we don't have a talent problem. Man for man we are as good as anyone (with a full list). But in 2013 the game is almost entirely about run. Witness Hawks vs Geelong. Geelong had nearly all the best players on the night. The Hawks could (and did) run further and the result was never really in doubt. Only if running capacities are equal will talent etc actually count. Run doesn't mean Jetta getting free down the wing....it means outnumbering at the contest on HBF....then also outnumbering at the next contest on the HFF...'cos THEN you get the easy spacious possessions that let you appear to stroll to victory. If you are getting outnumbered THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO FROM THEN ON. :-(

When we were the number 1 running team during the middle of the season many pundits had us first or equal first flag favourites. As soon as we couldn't run we sucked. It was that simple. Lots of our players still did wonderful things over the last 7 weeks but it is irrelevant if you lose the running game....because players delivering the ball into our fifty without pressure will destroy you. EVERY.SINGLE.TIME. And they did. I'm hoping that a healthy list will go a long, long way to making us competitive again. I would suggest that no team has ever made the top four with an injury/suspension season like ours so that has been a tremendous positive and I am very proud of the team in 2013. Someone said Freo had injuries this year. WTF??? 4 or 5 players missing is NOTHING compared to what we endured for the ENTIRE season. We never went into a game all season with less then 7 or 8 of our top 27 players unavailable. At the finish of the Carlton game we were missing 13 of our best 27 players!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is unheard of.

Go Bloods 2014. BTW I'm not going to watch the game from last night but I hear Crowley and Ballantyne were not nice to our favourite sons (Kezza and Smiffy). Was is so bad that I should barrack for the Hawks next week? I only hate Collingwood, Carlton, Essendon and Richmond.

[Matt80]

It was evident watching Fremantle that their abundance of quick, tall, strong tackling midfielders were damaging! Midfielders like Mundy, Crowley, Hill, Fyfe, Barlow were brilliant! Garry Rohan has the height, pace and ability overhead to mix it with this group, and should in my opinion be moved to the midfield!

Dene Towers has the right dimensions to play a tall midfield roll. Do people who have seen him play think he could develop into a Mundy, Crowley or Fyfe type?

[Ludwig]

It was evident watching Fremantle that their abundance of quick, tall, strong tackling midfielders were damaging! Midfielders like Mundy, Crowley, Hill, Fyfe, Barlow were brilliant! Garry Rohan has the height, pace and ability overhead to mix it with this group, and should in my opinion be moved to the midfield!

Dene Towers has the right dimensions to play a tall midfield roll. Do people who have seen him play think he could develop into a Mundy, Crowley or Fyfe type?

Of the 5 Freo players you mentioned only Hill is really quick. But the others are certainly big, strong and have other skills. They all can play inside and can cause damage on the outside as well.

I think Towers is more of an outside player. Is very quick, can take a high mark and kick a long goal. I would say he's more of a Gary Rohan type of player.

[Mug Punter]

Opinion on BF is he's worth a second round pick. It's going to be interesting to see what happens with him and Mummy.

I'd take a second round draft pick for Jesse, try and package it up with our first pick and pick up a top 10 recruit

[ASSASSIN]

Keep White - Swans needs as many TALL players as they can get. Daniel Hannebery is slow, same goes for O'keefe. Jack looked shell shocked with the speed of the play, last couple months. Swans needs to start rebuilding. It seems that it takes about 5years to get to the top, then you have to start all over again

[Ludwig]

Keep White - Swans needs as many TALL players as they can get. Daniel Hannebery is slow, same goes for O'keefe. Jack looked shell shocked with the speed of the play, last couple months. Swans needs to start rebuilding. It seems that it takes about 5years to get to the top, then you have to start all over again

Certainly many players looked sluggish from the long hard season. Hanners isn't slow, but was a bit hampered of late due to an injured knee. Jack was heavily tagged by Crowley, but has had a fantastic year. Both made the AA team.

Don't agree whatsoever about rebuilding. I think the Swans are a top 4 club that will challenge for the flag again next year. We have a young and talented midfield (3AAs) with strength both inside and outside. We lost a lot of our running power with the absence of Jetta, Rohan, Goodes and Shaw. We have a few issues to settle in how we arrange the ruck/kpp roles then everything should settle in nicely.

If we continue to recruit well, I don't see any reason for us to drop down the ladder in the foreseeable future.

[DK_]

If goalkicking was the only measurement for how we judge a KPFs, then Reid would have been delisted by now. Jesse's goal kicking is far better than Reid's. Generally speaking, Jesse's goalkicking has been very good this year. True, he should have kicked at least one of his 2 shots last night, but there were many easy misses from both sides, including set shot sharpshooter Chris Mayne, who missed both of his shots.

Why do some on here set the bar so much higher for Jesse that they do for others? Is it the McHack syndrome (a malady that fails to recognise that a player with weaknesses can improve and become an elite player)?

I think we'd be very lucky to get a player of better value from a 2nd round pick than we would from the current version of Jesse White. The current draft of not that great after the first round and we shouldn't be giving away good players for picks over #25.

There are many ways to approach the off season. I think the 2014 will be the more important one for making player movement decisions. We will probably have a few more retirements and delistings. I would like to see how the further development goes with a number of our players:

1. Three key defenders in Xav Richards, Brown, and Lockyer finished the season in good form. Maybe we are stronger in this area than we think. Next year's draft is rated better for KPPs than this one. We can buy another year with the current list.

2. Both Towers and Membrey show lots of promise for mid sized forwards. Both can take a good mark and kick a long goal.

3. Armstrong seems to have improved during his second half stint in the reserves. I wouldn't write him off. Matt Dick would have a lot to offer if he can improve his decision making and consistency in kicking. He's our youngest player and should have more development in him.

4. We have plenty of good midfielders lining up for spots in the seniors. Lloyd, Robinson and Perris are yet to play in an already deep and young senior midfield. I think Harry Marsh may be groomed for a Ryan Crowley type role. He has the size, speed and kicking to potentially play that guy that takes the opposition's best midfielder, and can cause damage going the other way with ball in hand.

I can see many scenarios regarding the draft and trading this year. We can simply fill the 3 retirements with Lloyd Perris plus 2 live picks, or we can trade a player or 2 to improve our position in the draft.

The situation with Mummy and White is the key. If we can afford both, we just may keep them and go into 2014 with a very deep squad. But we have to be prepared to rotate a lot, which I am not at all against. We can also trade both and try to land a couple of good young players for the future as both could fetch high draft pics, and we can probably cover for both of them with our current list. My feeling is that one will go, and it may depend on where the offers come from. There are a few factors to consider:

1. Are we committed to Reid as a forward, or could we see him playing in defence? If we want him to be our CHF in a combination with Tippett, then we should trade White. If we are open to Reid going back into defence, then we should re-sign Jesse.

2. How do we evaluate the 3 big man scenario? Can we play Mummy, Pyke and Tippett in the same team? At first I though it was possible, but am coming around to the opinion that it's too slow and cumbersome. If we sign Mummy, then we commit to playing all three, and probably relegate Naismith and Patrick Mitchell to the reserves for the next 3 years, and Jesse White to the trade table. It's a big call.

3. Jed Lamb is also unsigned. He looks to have a bright future, but can he find a spot in our side? His time for senior foot is now, but he seems to be outside the best 22 at the moment. It was interesting that Horse chose to go with the lesser experienced Biggs and Cunningham over Lamb. Could this be a sign? (And perhaps a sign for Tony A as well?) There will are also be a few challenging for spots from below (BJ, Jake Lloyd and perhaps Robinson and Perris as well).

As for our older senior players:

1. I wouldn't mind seeing ROK return to the forward line, taking Jude's place and easing the tougher role as an inside mid. It could extend his career by an extra hear. Still has a great tank and can cause some damage. Parker, Mitchell and Bird should all get more time on the ball.

2. Goodes will probably go on, but the injuries will be taking a toll by now. Would make a very handy sub in his final years. Could be very damaging coming off the bench late in games.

3. Hopefully Rhyce Shaw can rebound from his second ACL reco. But is likely to be a depth player next year, and probably his last. Still showed in his final couple of games that he has a lot to offer. Should end up as a coach.

4. Not sure what will be with LRT. He's only 30, so if he recovers completely from his injury, I can't see why he couldn't make an important contribution for another 3 years. Prefer LRT in defence allowing Dre to go forward. Both could end up as depth players depending on other decisions.

5. I cannot make up my mind on Grundy. He does a lot of good things and is a solid defender. Finished the season well, but had some bad games along the way. I prefer LRT in his spot. He's taller, quicker and a better kick. A lot may depend on the White/Reid situation. Reg still has 2 more years on his contract, but would trade him to GWS for one of their young KPPS like Jaksch or Josh Bruce. Eventually the tall defenders will be Johnson and a couple of ones not in the senior side at the moment (although one could be Reid). If Reid goes back, it helps solve this tall defender situation longer term.

6. Poor disposal may be the undoing of Benny McGlynn. I really like Benny. He brings so much with his speed and pressure, but as a link up man kills off too may offensive forays with clangers.

Overall, there's plenty to like about the Swans going forward. But the reality is that we were shown up badly by Freo and the other top 4 teams throughout the year, with 5 losses and a draw. It's hard to be sentimental in the face of the ruthlessness that Fremantle showed in the PF. Ross Lyon sets a tough standard for the rest of the league to match. Freo had lots of injuries during the year, but never made excuses and kept winning games. That attitude will force the Swans and other teams to make some hard decisions. Horse always says that we have to keep improving. That's a good start.

Ludwig, one of the best posts I've seen on here! Clear, concise, objective and insightful. Well done!

A few thoughts, most of which have been said by others, but have resonated with me:

1. Continual improvement is the objective, but it's hard to say where on the field the improvement should come from when our performance has been so warped by injury. I think one of our big problems was speed of attack, which was essential for slingshot footy - our way of beating the press and a critical part of finessing inside hardness. Shaw, Jetta and Goodes were massive losses this year. Shaw's impact when he got back in the groove, and the improvement when we put the inexperienced Biggs and Cunningham into the team, demonstrate the problem. But with BJack, Shaw, Rohan, Jetta, Jesse, Biggs, Cunningham and maybe Towers available next year, this should not be an enduring problem.
2. Lyon set the standard for list management this year and we must follow. Geelong have done this for a few years and is probably a big part of their sustained success. Freo just did it better. This means forgetting the concept of 'best 22' and replacing it with 'best 30'. This could mean four talls, even if only 3 are played each week or for big games.
3. The exception is probably the back 6. A settled back 6 who know each other like their spouses is critical to our success. Trying to rebuild this aspect of our team was one of our major challenges this year. The fact that we got most of the way there says much about McVeigh and Ted's leadership.
4. Pulling together a few different threads - lack of height/size in the midfield, Jesse's high possession, low goal finals performances, where the talls will fit next year. I get the impression that Jesse is being used/groomed for a quasi-midfield role. He lines up on the wing most games, sometimes even on-ball. For the last 5 or 6 games, he's spent most of his time upfield, as opposed to when he started his run of senior games as a lead-up forward. I don't think the run-with role on Hodge was a mistake - he was there to learn. Expect to see more of Jesse in the midfield next year. A good thing too - he breaks the pack and creates opportunity where the pressure stops our other mids. With some speedsters to run off him, and the time to practice structures to suit, he could be devastating.
5. Gut feel only, but I think Mumford's going. I already thought it beforehand, but answering a direct question about his future with the Swans with 'I want to play football' is a pretty clear message. I don't want it to be so - I think he's one of our most important players - but it doesn't look good. Hope I'm wrong on this one.
6. I think Jesse's staying. As detailed above, he's clearly being developed for a role and doing a good job of it, Horse is speaking very highly of him, he's clearly loving where he's at and you don't engage Jude as your manager to chase opportunities elsewhere.
7. I thought Benny's pressure game was good on Saturday, even if disposals let him down. I think it will be enough to save him, even if its not pretty.

[Mug Punter]

Certainly many players looked sluggish from the long hard season. Hanners isn't slow, but was a bit hampered of late due to an injured knee. Jack was heavily tagged by Crowley, but has had a fantastic year. Both made the AA team.

Don't agree whatsoever about rebuilding. I think the Swans are a top 4 club that will challenge for the flag again next year. We have a young and talented midfield (3AAs) with strength both inside and outside. We lost a lot of our running power with the absence of Jetta, Rohan, Goodes and Shaw. We have a few issues to settle in how we arrange the ruck/kpp roles then everything should settle in nicely.

If we continue to recruit well, I don't see any reason for us to drop down the ladder in the foreseeable future.

Agree totally. We are trouts against the stream when it comes to rebuilding though that may change with free agency as I suspect rebuilds will become increasingly difficult as players tend to gravitate to more successful clubs.

Evolution rather than revolution should be the key hear. We list manage as well as anyone in the business.

My 20c worth is that our backline is probably the only area that needs some planning. Heath, Ted, Shaw and the Esky are all getting a little long on the tooth and whilst it won't affect us too much in 2014, by 2015 it will be pressing. Best to stay a step ahead if we can.

And Hannebery certainly is not slow!!

- - - Updated - - -

5. Gut feel only, but I think Mumford's going. I already thought it beforehand, but answering a direct question about his future with the Swans with 'I want to play football' is a pretty clear message. I don't want it to be so - I think he's one of our most important players - but it doesn't look good. Hope I'm wrong on this one.
.

I fear you are right on that.

What should we do if he does? I am a huge Pyke fan but I think he needs to be our number 2 ruck and pinch hitting forward.

Should we trade or pick up a free agent? Any young uns coming through? (ruckmen take time though)

[DK_]

I fear you are right on that.

What should we do if he does? I am a huge Pyke fan but I think he needs to be our number 2 ruck and pinch hitting forward.

Should we trade or pick up a free agent? Any young uns coming through? (ruckmen take time though)

I hear good things about Naismith, though I defer to Ugg's encyclopaedic knowledge on matters of the magoos. I think he's a year or two off, so I suspect Mike Pyke will hold the fort with minimal support from Jesse and Tippett (enough to give him a rest and occasional support through a third man up).

There's also the US recruit I think, but, taking Pyke as a best case, he's three or four years away.

I don't think there's any free agent ruckmen in the market, or even any coming off contract. Hence the sharks circling on Mumford. I do think we're a little sparse in that area though. A serious injury to Naismith and Pyke and we'd be in trouble. White and Tippett would be wasted in the ruck.

The good news is that Pyke can be trusted to develop himself into a leading proponent of just about any role. He's so effective as a pinch-hitting forward because that is what he focussed on this year. If no 1 ruckman is where he's needed, rest assured he will do what it takes and he will do it well. He really is the ultimate professional. Young players coming through would be well served to use him as a role-model.

Off the subject a little, does he mentor anyone? Surely the new Yankee would be an obvious matchup?

[Mug Punter]

Without injuries I could live with that scenario but what if Pyke gets hurt?

At the very least I think we need to recruit some Ruck cover is Mumford leaves, even if it was a journeyman. Really think we need to throw all we can into keeping Mummy.

[Pmcc2911]

the part of the season I look forward to the least.

Players are cut, traded or retire (it feels like losing family )

Some players may want to leave (it feels like betrayal)

& I'll read posts about why fellow supporters want to get rid of some of my "family", quite often heartlessly & mercilessly.

I know players have to go, lists have to be turned over, but I just hate this time of year.

Well put, the guys I feel the most for are the rookies.
They get two or so years to make the cut and realise their dream and for what ever reason they don't get there, then they are cut adrift,
Pretty tough to handle

[DK_]

Without injuries I could live with that scenario but what if Pyke gets hurt?

At the very least I think we need to recruit some Ruck cover is Mumford leaves, even if it was a journeyman. Really think we need to throw all we can into keeping Mummy.

Don't disagree. Too critical a position to be so thin on the ground. Hopefully we'll pull off another money ball recruitment

[Ludwig]

Mummy and Pyke

Earlier in the year most of us were saying that Pyke was our no. 1 ruckman. Mummy came back strongly after his broken jaw and Mummy, Pyke and Tippett all played well together. I've been watching the work of Mummy and Pyke more closely over the past few weeks and feel that Pyke is actually the more effective ruckman. Mummy gets in the rough and tumble of things and does help the mids out in tackling and providing a big body inside. But overall it didn't seem to add any particular advantage to us when the dust settled. The other team seem to end up the ball at least half the time anyway. Pyke was actually better at directing the ball to one of our players. Mummy tries to make a contest and get a hitout, but more often than not, it goes to the other team. It was not just against Sandi but against Max Bailey as well. He's got a big tank and runs around a lot, but doesn't make that big impact around the ground.

I think we'd be better served with another strong running midfielder instead of having 2 main ruckmen and just leave the main ruckwork to Pyke with Tippett and White chipping in. I think you can only play 2 legit ruckmen if they of a very special type. Sandilands and Clarke of Freo along with Cox and NicNat are the only combinations that fit the bill IMO. Mummy and Pyke, although both fine ruckmen with much to offer, don't have the combination of athleticism and ruck domination of the Perth pairs.

I want to be clear. If we didn't have Pyke, I would fight tooth and claw to keep Mummy. But I feel we would eventually end up playing only one at a time next year anyway, as we find a more effective team balance with a different combination of players.

I think it would best for both Mummy and the Swans if we can get a good trade for him with all parties happy, even if it means that he goes to Hawthorn or Collingwood.

I don't think we are thin in the ruck department. Tippett and White are both decent ruckmen. Naismith is looking a good young prospect and who knows what will be with American recruit Patrick Mitchell (although it's unrealistic that he would provide anything next year). If need be, there are lots of solid ruckmen that can be recruited as rookies for a year if we feel we need additional cover; Mark Seaby and even Jolly to name a couple.