Greatest ever Swan?

[bloodspirit]

Brilliant work Ruck'n'Roll! Thank you.

Thanks also KSAS.

I definitely support these posts being moved to an appropriately titled thread so we can search it and grow it in future.

[The Big Cat]

I think the club should re-adopt the Latin motto shown on South Melbourne's earliest logo - Aut vincere aut mori ("either to conquer or to die") or simply "victory or death".

[MattW]

I think the club should re-adopt the Latin motto shown on South Melbourne's earliest logo - Aut vincere aut mori ("either to conquer or to die") or simply "victory or death".

I might send an email passing on that suggestion.

[Odysseus]

I think the club should re-adopt the Latin motto shown on South Melbourne's earliest logo - Aut vincere aut mori ("either to conquer or to die") or simply "victory or death".

Reminds me a little too much of Horace, as taken up in Wilfred Owen's WW1 poem, Dulce et decorum est:

[Roughly: If you had seen the horrors of war],
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

(It is sweet and noble to die for one's country.)

Footy is just a game, after all.

The other profound reason against re-adoption of the Latin is that RWO would break out in conflict over whether to pronounce 'vincere' as VIN-KEH-REH or WIN-KEH-REH. Or whatever.

[Mark26]

This is an intriguing thread and thanks to all for the history lesson this far. I just stumbled on this article from 2017 about South Melbourne's foundations on our website of all places! I'll post the link for anyone interested.
Our history: South Melbourne foundations

[stevoswan]

This is an intriguing thread and thanks to all for the history lesson this far. I just stumbled on this article from 2017 about South Melbourne's foundations on our website of all places! I'll post the link for anyone interested.
Our history: South Melbourne foundations

Very interesting article. Thanks for posting.

So, even though the amalgamation of Albert Park and Emerald Hill was part of our history, we were actually born out of the neighbouring Cecil Football Club. Go Cecils!!

Doesn't have quite the same ring to it.....GO SWANS!

[KSAS]

This is an intriguing thread and thanks to all for the history lesson this far. I just stumbled on this article from 2017 about South Melbourne's foundations on our website of all places! I'll post the link for anyone interested.
Our history: South Melbourne foundations

Thanks! This article also answered the question from my previous post that it was the 2nd incarnation of South Melbourne (Cecil) that had the blue & white colours. I was also fascinated to read that Albert Park played at St Vincent gardens! We lived a block away from those gardens & couldn't imagine how they could've played footy there being of a rectangular shape with many trees! Club could've just as easily been known as Albert Park. Would've been shouting carn the Parkers with a Parker now club Captain!

[Ruck'n'Roll]

Very interesting article. Our history: South Melbourne foundations Thanks for posting.
So, even though the amalgamation of Albert Park and Emerald Hill was part of our history,

I can't find any primary evidence for a merger between Albert Park and Emerald Hill in 1867 - the contemporaneous birth announcement of the Albert Park club suggests otherwise.

we were actually born out of the neighbouring Cecil Football Club. Go Cecils!!
Doesn't have quite the same ring to it.....GO SWANS!

Nah, at best you can say the current club was half born from the Cecil club.
The 1880 amalgamation between Albert Park and South Melbourne (nee Cecil) is well documented.

And given that that the only thing that survives from the 1880 amalgamation to the present day, are the red-and-white Albert Park colours, then it looks very much like the current club is more connected to Albert Park than Cecil.

1867 is a better birthdate than 1874 - QED


PS
Albert Park was founded in a pub, the Cecil club in a temperance hall - As a fellow that likes a tipple now and then I find the idea of starting a footy team in the latter to be a distinctly un-Australian thing to do.
Cheers!

PPS All this Latin reminds me of some of the conversations that rolled about on RWO in earlier days.

[KSAS]

I can't find any primary evidence for a merger between Albert Park and Emerald Hill in 1867 - the contemporaneous birth announcement of the Albert Park club suggests otherwise.

I'm now a bit confused whether the club that was formed in 1867 was named South Melbourne or Albert Park? My understanding that it was South Melbourne but then later renamed to Albert Park in 1869 as detailed in your earlier post?

If the Albert Park/Emerald Hill merger wasn't the catalyst for the 1867 (South Melbourne?) club foundation, are you're intimating this was a entirely new club establishment?

Sorry for the questions as I've been captivated on this topic as it sorta feels I'm rediscovering my club's history after all these years!

[/B]Albert Park was founded in a pub, the Cecil club in a temperance hall - As a fellow that likes a tipple now and then I find the idea of starting a footy team in the latter to be a distinctly un-Australian thing to do.
Cheers!

That pub being The Rose Of Denmark as you've previously mentioned, which I've looked up to find it also was established in 1867 and closed in 1920 where it was converted to private residence: Rose of Denmark Hotel

[Ruck'n'Roll]

There seems to be a lot of mis-information about - some of it due to the earlier shortage of primary source material, but these days it looks more like laziness. Anyway to answer your questions

I'm now a bit confused whether the club that was formed in 1867 was named South Melbourne or Albert Park? My understanding that it was South Melbourne but then later renamed to Albert Park in 1869 as detailed in your earlier post?

Correct. The foundation name in 1867 was indeed South Melbourne, the club suffered from periods of name-instability until they finally settled on Albert Park in 1869.

If the Albert Park/Emerald Hill merger wasn't the catalyst for the 1867 (South Melbourne?) club foundation, are you're intimating this was a entirely new club establishment?

Yep, the birth announcement suggests it was indeed a new foundation, I can find no primary evidence of a merger.
A merger also seems unlikely as Emerald Hill were still competing in 1868.
On the other hand it's extremely likely that that this new club must have drawn players from EH and AP - it may be the source of the name-instability mentioned above.

Sorry for the questions as I've been captivated on this topic as it sorta feels I'm rediscovering my club's history after all these years![/url]

Don't be, it's nice to chat on the subject and it's a good change of pace from the more immediate concerns that are the primary focus of RWO.

[bloodspirit]

What sort of primary sources do you look for RnR, and where/how do you find them?

[Ruck'n'Roll]

For 19thc material, the State Library of Victoria is a great source for original documents.
They have now digitised so much material that it makes research far easier and complete than it used to be. Newspapers in particular are especially useful.
The National Libraries "Trove" website is the best access point.

[KSAS]

Much appreciate your responses RNR. With all these name changes it reminded me of a scene from the movie "The Life of Brian" where they had "The Judean People's Front" clashing with "The People's Front of Judea". Splitters!!!!

Having been updated with all this historical info it seems to me the foundation year is either 1880 when the 2nd South Melbourne merged with Albert Park, as this version first began playing from the Lake Oval donning the red and white colours OR 1867 when the original South Melbourne was first established in red & white colours but later renamed to Albert Park. This is the SAME club which merged with the latter South Melbourne in 1880. My preference is 1867 as it appears to be the embryo of our current club. 1874 seems to me as being only a transition point.

Again, I find this all interesting as it just goes to show how far our rich club history goes back!

[stevoswan]

Nah, at best you can say the current club was half born from the Cecil club.
The 1880 amalgamation between Albert Park and South Melbourne (nee Cecil) is well documented.

And given that that the only thing that survives from the 1880 amalgamation to the present day, are the red-and-white Albert Park colours, then it looks very much like the current club is more connected to Albert Park than Cecil.

I see your pint but was basing my assessment on this paragraph, particularly the emboldened part of the last sentence.

"Albert Park enjoyed modest success until June 1874, when a rival group formed the new Cecil Football Club. Within a month, the new club changed its name to the South Melbourne Football Club, and after a complicated beginning this was the club that would subsequently relocate to Sydney to become the Sydney Swans."

[bloodspirit]

For 19thc material, the State Library of Victoria is a great source for original documents.
They have now digitised so much material that it makes research far easier and complete than it used to be. Newspapers in particular are especially useful.
The National Libraries "Trove" website is the best access point.

I'm not proposing to do any such research myself but I was wondering what the "primary sources" you refer to are. I take it they are for the most part news reports which you access via the State library. Thanks so much for clarifying.