General footy chat Horse was on Footy Classified

[Ruck'n'Roll]

Horse was on Footy Classified last night - numerous topics touched upon.

Buddy/Sam's/Daniher's injury injuries

I'll skip over all the predictable and dull waffle about how wonderful Bud's condition was - long story short, it's a bad tear but Horse expects him back this season.

Andrew Russell (ex Hawthorn High Performance guru, now at the Blues) suggested that Buddy needed to shed some kilo's to get the best out of his latter years.
When asked to comment, Horse wouldn't be drawn on the suggestion, but suggested commenting on another clubs players like that was inappropriate.

Then Cornes asked him to comment on JD's situation, he politely pointed out that given his response to the Russell suggestion - he wouldn't be commenting on an Essendon player. He really is the calmest of Equidae.

While Horse remains confident that Bud has plenty of good footy left, he highlighted two Bud-positives
a) We wanted to make grand finals and
b) because his presence has helped young players develop (citing McCartin).

The Future

He was then asked about Tadgh, and he pointed out that it was a hard conversation and expressed his hope that the AFL wasn't going to far in that area.

The conversation moved to the Eastern Seaboard Competition, noting it wouldn't be the VFL and suggested that while it sounded ok, the details were important.

He pointed out that last year our NEAFL team fronted up with as few as 10 listed players (including rookies) and wondered how a team could field a competitive reserves team if the lists are trimmed by 10.

He then went even further with a note of caution saying how he was hearing how good the AFL will be when we get through the covid thing - but he isn't sure. Will the cuts go too far he asked? Will they hurt the product? What happens to those players that need development?

Some of his comments on the future, echoed those made by some of the more thoughtful RWOers.

[dimelb]

Thanks for that R'n'R - very much appreciated.

It is fascinating and I think valuable to see Horse quietly raising warning signals.

[Markwebbos]

There is a school of thought, put forward by Jake Niall at TMOFKA Fairfax that footy used to be better and the joy has been coached out of it. That a return to a less professional product would be an improvement.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/a-lockdown-lesson-old-footy-was-better-20200530-p54xz7.html

It did not take too many games to reach the sobering conclusion that the AFL's 2015-20 product is an inferior spectacle to the footy that spanned the mid '80s until sometime in the 2000s ... The players were spread all over the field, rather than compacted into one half. Key forwards like 'Plugger' "stayed at home". They were competing against one defender and an occasional ruckman and Lockett and Ablett 1.0 weren't averse to jumping into the brave defender who stood "in the hole". When teams had the ball, their intention was clear: to score... Today ... the player with the ball is coached to consider, not just scoring potential, but to protect against a "dangerous" turnover...

In some quarters, a hope has been expressed that, amid the financial carnage, the game might improve by "going backwards", that the AFL spectacle could benefit from fewer coaches teaching the players to defend first, that a diminished professionalism could even see a hybrid part-time player.

[Odysseus]

There is a school of thought, put forward by Jake Niall at TMOFKA Fairfax that footy used to be better and the joy has been coached out of it. That a return to a less professional product would be an improvement.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/a-lockdown-lesson-old-footy-was-better-20200530-p54xz7.html

It did not take too many games to reach the sobering conclusion that the AFL's 2015-20 product is an inferior spectacle to the footy that spanned the mid '80s until sometime in the 2000s ... The players were spread all over the field, rather than compacted into one half. Key forwards like 'Plugger' "stayed at home". They were competing against one defender and an occasional ruckman and Lockett and Ablett 1.0 weren't averse to jumping into the brave defender who stood "in the hole". When teams had the ball, their intention was clear: to score... Today ... the player with the ball is coached to consider, not just scoring potential, but to protect against a "dangerous" turnover...

In some quarters, a hope has been expressed that, amid the financial carnage, the game might improve by "going backwards", that the AFL spectacle could benefit from fewer coaches teaching the players to defend first, that a diminished professionalism could even see a hybrid part-time player.

The idea was picked up by Richard Hinds of the ABC: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-...-game/12308318

[bloodspirit]

Thanks RnR for sharing and for summing it up so neatly.

Equidae! ????

Not sure I agree that it is not the media punditry's role to comment on individual players, regardless of which club they're at, especially when one is as well qualified to do so as a senior and long time high performance coach. It's only an opinion. Possibly Russell shouldn't have taken on the media gig while he's still working in clubland, but that's a different issue. Sounds like rather there's a tacit understanding by clubland that this is not done. But maybe Fox is shaking this up a bit if they're hiring Russell to offer his thoughts? And perhaps Horse was offering a bit of pushback against this new direction? Russell will be in a tricky spot if his paymasters continue to require him to go 'there' but he keeps getting slapped down by people like John Longmire.

[neilfws]

There is a school of thought, put forward by Jake Niall at TMOFKA Fairfax that footy used to be better and the joy has been coached out of it. That a return to a less professional product would be an improvement.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/a-lockdown-lesson-old-footy-was-better-20200530-p54xz7.html

I'm always suspicious of any "things used to be better" argument.
First, "better" is subjective - what does it mean?
Second, human memories are selective and unreliable.

And third - surely Jake realises that TV only replays the better games? I bet there were plenty of ordinary games pre-2000.

I've seen plenty of great games in my 17 years of watching, and some stinkers too. But I don't have a strong sense of any trends for "better" or "worse" over time.

[barracuda]

I hope the discussions around NEAFL continue. There must be a strong second tier eastern competition that encompasses non afl sides from NSW, Queensland and ACT. Otherwise there is no pathway for talented players from those areas who do not get drafted, other than to leave the state. This can not be good for the growth of the game in the east, and will be a disincentive for players to join the sport or stay. I really feel for the Angus Bakers and others who may be lost. Whilst I don't mind the 14 team east coast AFL reserves comp, it is clear it simply has a development focus. I hope the additional option of a fully fledged semi pro/non afl eastern comp one day becomes viable. Something that encompasses top non afl VFL teams, southport, canberra, sydney uni etc that rivals sanfl and wafl for $ would be awesome. The sides would need a clear funding structure including premises (like south port has) that raise revenue.

[Markwebbos]

I'm always suspicious of any "things used to be better" argument.
First, "better" is subjective - what does it mean?
Second, human memories are selective and unreliable.

And third - surely Jake realises that TV only replays the better games? I bet there were plenty of ordinary games pre-2000.

I've seen plenty of great games in my 17 years of watching, and some stinkers too. But I don't have a strong sense of any trends for "better" or "worse" over time.

It’s worth reading the Jake Niall article. It’s not a very difficult paywall to navigate around.

He’s been watching reruns of old games, so he does at least have the evidence of his eyes, rather than relying on his memory.

He freely admits that he’s watching good games from this “golden age” and not seeing the dross.

But the point he makes (and those are the bits I pasted) is that the game was played in a different spirit then. A simpler, more attacking way. And that despite the lower skill level and fitness, it was subjectively more enjoyable to watch.

And objectively higher scoring.

We should all duck off to youtube and watch random games from the late 90s / early noughties, then report back

[barry]

It's the tight shorts and head high tackles that put me off the old games.

[TheBloods]

It’s worth reading the Jake Niall article. It’s not a very difficult paywall to navigate around.

He’s been watching reruns of old games, so he does at least have the evidence of his eyes, rather than relying on his memory.

He freely admits that he’s watching good games from this “golden age” and not seeing the dross.

But the point he makes (and those are the bits I pasted) is that the game was played in a different spirit then. A simpler, more attacking way. And that despite the lower skill level and fitness, it was subjectively more enjoyable to watch.

And objectively higher scoring.

We should all duck off to youtube and watch random games from the late 90s / early noughties, then report back

The problem with the good games from the current era is they would be considered poor games in the 80s and 90s. I was at the MCG on grand final day in 2018, and there was plenty of adrenaline having just watched a very tight contest with a thrilling finish. But over the four quarters of that match, I was never impressed by the football on display. There were still as many missed targets, wasted opportunities, rolling scrums and bad decisions as any other match. Were it not a grand final on the G in front of 100k, I have no doubt it would've faded into obscurity, save for Sheed's remarkable goal. Instead it is hyped up as one of the best grand finals ever.

People who say that were obviously not there in 84, 89 or even 94, which despite being a blow-out was one of the most awesome displays of might ever by the WCE. Or 07, which was the biggest blow-out in grand final history but was still a pleasure to watch that Geelong team armed with supreme skills and chemistry as a team.

It has become too much about the contest and not enough about the football. Fans will excuse three quarters of rubbish if the last quarter ends in a tight finish with a singular highlight.

[Nico]

It's the tight shorts and head high tackles that put me off the old games.

Agree Barry, there was no shortage of thuggery. By the way Peter Caven put his body in the way of Plugger by some distance and still got his head rearranged.

[Ruck'n'Roll]

I hope the discussions around NEAFL continue. There must be a strong second tier eastern competition that encompasses non afl sides from NSW, Queensland and ACT. Otherwise there is no pathway for talented players from those areas who do not get drafted, other than to leave the state. This can not be good for the growth of the game in the east, and will be a disincentive for players to join the sport or stay. I really feel for the Angus Bakers and others who may be lost. Whilst I don't mind the 14 team east coast AFL reserves comp, it is clear it simply has a development focus. I hope the additional option of a fully fledged semi pro/non afl eastern comp one day becomes viable. Something that encompasses top non afl VFL teams, southport, canberra, sydney uni etc that rivals sanfl and wafl for $ would be awesome. The sides would need a clear funding structure including premises (like south port has) that raise revenue.

I fear you are correct.

From the point of view of game development in the eastern states, I fear this will be another retrograde step by the AFL.

I don't know whether the AFL's attitude to game development outside Victoria is genuine organisational schizophrenia, or just the need to appease the Melbourne Football Mafia. I suspect the latter, but it's not helpful.

The march of Soccer should have been halted and the NRL and ARU should have been locked safely away in their own sporting ghetto by now.

We can only hope the NRL, even with the tumescent V'landys in the saddle do not have the capability of taking advantage of AFL missteps.

Speaking of AFL mis-steps in NSW, here's my list

#1 Changing the plan and sending the Swans to Sydney unassisted must surely be #1
#2 The almost complete loss of the ACT
#3 Letting corporate cowboys stuff up the Swans in the late 80's
#4 Excluding the Rams for the TAC cup is probably
#5 The NSW Scholarship Scheme is a little lower on the list
#6 The COLA cancellation didn't help

Have I missed anything?

[Jupiter]

I fear you are correct.

From the point of view of game development in the eastern states, I fear this will be another retrograde step by the AFL.

I don't know whether the AFL's attitude to game development outside Victoria is genuine organisational schizophrenia, or just the need to appease the Melbourne Football Mafia. I suspect the latter, but it's not helpful.

The march of Soccer should have been halted and the NRL and ARU should have been locked safely away in their own sporting ghetto by now.

We can only hope the NRL, even with the tumescent V'landys in the saddle do not have the capability of taking advantage of AFL missteps.

Sometime I must compile a list of AFL mis-steps in NSW:

#1 Changing the plan and sending the Swans to Sydney unassisted must surely be #1
#2 The almost complete loss of the ACT
#3 Letting corporate cowboys stuff up the Swans in the late 80's
#4 Excluding the Rams for the TAC cup is probably
#5 The NSW Scholarship Scheme is a little lower on the list
#6 The COLA cancellation didn't help

Have I missed anything?

A conga line of AFL industry insider/careerists to cut ribbons, turn a sod at facility developments and drink wine with pollies to head up NSW/ACT - small wins and improvements aplenty that with the $ my dog could have overseen, but no real leadership and strategic understanding of the market to bed down the wins of the golden years as you say - built a training centre for GWS they never use at Blacktown (useful and good facility for local footy although no real clubs nearby) but only recently developments in the pipeline for Swans training facilities which is a joke, still no decent 2nd tier grounds and playing second fiddle to league and others all over town - no clue on what do with 2nd tier footy and locally sabotage their own NEAFL pathway and I hear on another forum they look like they are going to let it go due to $ - BIG mistake and step backwards. I could go on..

[Mr Magoo]

I fear you are correct.

From the point of view of game development in the eastern states, I fear this will be another retrograde step by the AFL.

I don't know whether the AFL's attitude to game development outside Victoria is genuine organisational schizophrenia, or just the need to appease the Melbourne Football Mafia. I suspect the latter, but it's not helpful.

The march of Soccer should have been halted and the NRL and ARU should have been locked safely away in their own sporting ghetto by now.

We can only hope the NRL, even with the tumescent V'landys in the saddle do not have the capability of taking advantage of AFL missteps.

Speaking of AFL mis-steps in NSW, here's my list

#1 Changing the plan and sending the Swans to Sydney unassisted must surely be #1
#2 The almost complete loss of the ACT
#3 Letting corporate cowboys stuff up the Swans in the late 80's
#4 Excluding the Rams for the TAC cup is probably
#5 The NSW Scholarship Scheme is a little lower on the list
#6 The COLA cancellation didn't help

Have I missed anything?

The biggest problem is that the AFL management is pretty much totally sourced out of Melbourne and it seems out of the old boy private school network where people live and breathe AFL.

They have little to no understanding of how people in NSW feel about AFL and for the most part probably really dont care. What they seem to want is a competition that lets the other states in so that they get the necessary money coming into the game from tv rights etc while still maintaining that slight and ever present bias towards Victorian teams and the traditional talent systems.

They still have little to no idea of how precarious the game is in NSW. While there has been a significant increase in interest over the past thirty years or so , there still isnt an overwhelming take up of the game. High School programmes are almost non existent and many schools actively prevent aussie rules teams from even forming in them for either lack of interest or fear of damaging their other sports programme participation (ie in Rugby Union or League). The sydney club competition at older age junior level still struggles (past under 14s) to maintain a high level and its still not uncommon in the Div 1 comps in those ages (15s and 17s) to only have 6 or 8 teams with pretty much only half of them of competing seriously for the premiership.

If they want to build the game here in Sydney and other non traditional AFL areas , I dont think the academies on their own are necessarily the answer.

You only have to look at the GWS and Swans Academy programmes. While it is an excellent programme it has positives and negatives to it. While being in the academy sounds a great thing and they are very well run, they will be seen as somewhat limiting by top age sportsman if it continues that only 1 or 2 players (at best) are recruited from them each year. If Rugby League and Union start to get their houses in order and better develop their junior programmes, they will attract kids away from the academy if the kids see that more kids are getting a chance to make a high level in those sports than to go through six years of being in the academy only to be still overlooked for kids from the riverina, canberra or traditional states.

The academies for all their perceived success are yet to yield that many more AFL recruits to the game - you can almost count on one hand how many non traditional area recruits (ie outside of Riverina and Canberra) have been taken by Giants and Swans over the past five or so years and almost on one finger how many have been taken by other clubs.

It seems that if the swans or giants dont take them up the other clubs subsequently take the view that "they couldnt be good enough for them so they arent good enough for us".

I may be over estimating the strength of the Swans academy but the results each year continue to show how strong they are becoming, yet the final results in terms of ultimate recognition do not . While the current draft crop of Campbell and Gulden are obviously grabbing some attention, the draft age from last year had no draftees and you then look at the 16s from last year (which follow campbell and guldens year) .

At that age , the swans won the 16 series against the giants academy 3-0, they then made up about half of the RAMs squad which then went undefeated against QLD , Tassy and the NT. Yet , the only NSW player picked in the all australian team was from the riverina and only one other from Canberra was picked in the NAB Academy programme. The results just dont match up for me and it would seem a perverse conclusion to come to, that from a swans squad that whitewashed the giants , that then had its stronger players form half of a NSW squad that was undefeated in Div 2, that not one player was good enough for further accolades yet their giants, tassy and qld academy counterparts were.

Either way - if the plan is just to continue the academies and nothing else , growth of the game in NSW will continue but will plateau in my view if the continued result is that a couple of kids might be given an opportunity at the highest level and beyond that it falls of a cliff as to possible pathways.

[Jupiter]

The biggest problem is that the AFL management is pretty much totally sourced out of Melbourne and it seems out of the old boy private school network where people live and breathe AFL.

They have little to no understanding of how people in NSW feel about AFL and for the most part probably really dont care. What they seem to want is a competition that lets the other states in so that they get the necessary money coming into the game from tv rights etc while still maintaining that slight and ever present bias towards Victorian teams and the traditional talent systems.

They still have little to no idea of how precarious the game is in NSW. While there has been a significant increase in interest over the past thirty years or so , there still isnt an overwhelming take up of the game. High School programmes are almost non existent and many schools actively prevent aussie rules teams from even forming in them for either lack of interest or fear of damaging their other sports programme participation (ie in Rugby Union or League). The sydney club competition at older age junior level still struggles (past under 14s) to maintain a high level and its still not uncommon in the Div 1 comps in those ages (15s and 17s) to only have 6 or 8 teams with pretty much only half of them of competing seriously for the premiership.

If they want to build the game here in Sydney and other non traditional AFL areas , I dont think the academies on their own are necessarily the answer.

You only have to look at the GWS and Swans Academy programmes. While it is an excellent programme it has positives and negatives to it. While being in the academy sounds a great thing and they are very well run, they will be seen as somewhat limiting by top age sportsman if it continues that only 1 or 2 players (at best) are recruited from them each year. If Rugby League and Union start to get their houses in order and better develop their junior programmes, they will attract kids away from the academy if the kids see that more kids are getting a chance to make a high level in those sports than to go through six years of being in the academy only to be still overlooked for kids from the riverina, canberra or traditional states.

The academies for all their perceived success are yet to yield that many more AFL recruits to the game - you can almost count on one hand how many non traditional area recruits (ie outside of Riverina and Canberra) have been taken by Giants and Swans over the past five or so years and almost on one finger how many have been taken by other clubs.

It seems that if the swans or giants dont take them up the other clubs subsequently take the view that "they couldnt be good enough for them so they arent good enough for us".

I may be over estimating the strength of the Swans academy but the results each year continue to show how strong they are becoming, yet the final results in terms of ultimate recognition do not . While the current draft crop of Campbell and Gulden are obviously grabbing some attention, the draft age from last year had no draftees and you then look at the 16s from last year (which follow campbell and guldens year) .

At that age , the swans won the 16 series against the giants academy 3-0, they then made up about half of the RAMs squad which then went undefeated against QLD , Tassy and the NT. Yet , the only NSW player picked in the all australian team was from the riverina and only one other from Canberra was picked in the NAB Academy programme. The results just dont match up for me and it would seem a perverse conclusion to come to, that from a swans squad that whitewashed the giants , that then had its stronger players form half of a NSW squad that was undefeated in Div 2, that not one player was good enough for further accolades yet their giants, tassy and qld academy counterparts were.

Either way - if the plan is just to continue the academies and nothing else , growth of the game in NSW will continue but will plateau in my view if the continued result is that a couple of kids might be given an opportunity at the highest level and beyond that it falls of a cliff as to possible pathways.

Amen. The Academies will lose quite a bit of their fizz when all that happens is mum and dad lose the kids to Adelaide or Melbourne always and don't get a chance on an AFL list. I agree and I'm a bit p...d that the Swannies haven't taken more local lads in the last 2 or 3 years to be honest, I think some lads deserved a chance but its as you say if the giants or swannies don't pick them nearly always no one does, which is flawed I agree. I guess the NEAFL with all its faults has at least provided reasonable development for 2s players and provided higher standard footy for more lads at home in Sydney/Canberra - 2 community teams and Swans/GWS top ups has meant lots of second tier footy for lots of locals, from 17yrs through to much later if they want. The reality is that a lot of the lads in the NEAFL sides/top ups would be playing rugger in the Shute Shield or similar if the pathway doesn't stack up. Just when it looked like we were making inroads - if focus is lost the implications could be huge.