Swans v Dogs Gamethread

[Captain]

+1

[Nico]

This is a good question and I would be fascinated to know the answer. Not sure that no other club gets away with the things they do but they do get away with stuff and they do get a very favourable free kick differential. The hypothesis has been put forward that it is because they are first to the ball more often than not.

I noticed at the game they got a lot of frees for holding. When they run onto the footy and there is a player on their hammer, they let the ball hit them on the chest/body but don't take possession. Hence the following player thinks they have taken possession. If the umpire is facing that play it will always be a holding free.

[Captain]

I noticed at the game they got a lot of frees for holding. When they run onto the footy and there is a player on their hammer, they let the ball hit them on the chest/body but don't take possession. Hence the following player thinks they have taken possession. If the umpire is facing that play it will always be a holding free.

Nothing can do about those ones.

The problem I have is with the ones that are clearly not there (which the umpire should be able to see) such as what Lewis Young received which resulted in goal at a critical time.

[Blood Fever]

Hayward’s resurgence has been fantastic to watch.

It’s easy to forget what a skilled, clever and dangerous player he was in his first two years. He got some injuries in year three and was asked often to play as second tall last year, but he has serious talent.

Agree with this. Showing a lot more maturity as well. Watched a replay of the game and the amount of ground covered by McInerney is incredible. Massive tank, quick and is still going full bore deep in the game. Pity he missed that goal in the last quarter after he had absolutely torched his direct opponent.

[crackedactor 01]

The mere fact that there is a difference in free kicks - even over a sustained period - is not necessarily hard to justify. There is no reason to presume that different teams should all, over the long term at least, get about the same number of free kicks.

A simple example would be that where one team plays dirty deliberately then you might expect they would get more free kicks against them. A less extreme example is that an ill-disciplined team would get more free kicks against them.

A differential could also relate to gamestyle - being coached to play in a certain way. This could be inadvertent or deliberate. Deliberate examples might run along the lines of it being a 'professional foul' where the upside of risking (or even conceding) the free kick against is worth the benefit e.g. lying all over the tackled player and holding the ball up to allow teammates time to get back in position. But professional fouls would be the exception not the rule. And coaching that is inadvertently leading to free kicks is poor technique and would get ironed out e.g. teaching players to tackle better.

The thing that I don't understand is that the Swans are not lacking in discipline and I don't think we would be considered a dirty team by any stretch of the imagination. (Conversely, at least on RWO many would consider the Dogs to be a dirtier team (albeit not to - to my mind - the same degree as the 'unsociable' Hawks).) So, what gives?

I'm more curious than tending to the theory that umpires are consciously biased which just doesn't make much sense to me. I think unconscious biases could be a part of the explanation but I feel there's more to it and that some of it has to do with game style. For instance, the Swans are known as a 'contested' team. Would this in any way explain us getting more frees against? This season I think I saw that we are rated the #1 'pressure' team. Would this involve conceding more frees inadvertently in the process of applying maximum pressure to the opposition? I think Richmond in recent times have been a high pressure team - would that correlate with them conceding more frees?

I think without a doubt Richmond has been the best high pressure team over the last 3 years. Therefore they should have the worse free kick ratio, but this is not the case. I told an Essendon supporter friend before Sunday's game that the Bulldogs will get 12 to 16 more frees than Sydney. The final total was 13 more. The good news is himself and other supporters are starting to ask questions as to why the Bulldogs have such a prestigious position in the umpiring eyes.

[dejavoodoo44]

Agree with this. Showing a lot more maturity as well. Watched a replay of the game and the amount of ground covered by McInerney is incredible. Massive tank, quick and is still going full bore deep in the game. Pity he missed that goal in the last quarter after he had absolutely torched his direct opponent.

Yes, I'm a McInerney fan, and his disposals are usually excellent. I think his miss in the last, was a classic case of split decision making. One part of his brain was thinking, 'give it to Buddy'. Another part thought, 'go for goal'. In the end, he got the worst of both worlds: a kick in the direction of Buddy, that had the force to fly over his head and reach the goals.

[joeykanga]

Oh Boy! A Quiz. I love a quiz. Here we go.

My favorite umpire is Eleni Glouftsis. She hasn't bothered to learn the rules, so rarely makes mistakes.

I enjoy listening to Brian Taylor, but after 6 hours, I need a short break.

Do I win a prize?

Oh boy
Presumptuous to think you’ve won

[dejavoodoo44]

I noticed at the game they got a lot of frees for holding. When they run onto the footy and there is a player on their hammer, they let the ball hit them on the chest/body but don't take possession. Hence the following player thinks they have taken possession. If the umpire is facing that play it will always be a holding free.

Which suggests that it's a tactic to milk frees. However, the ones that probably annoy me the most, are those where they have possession, but end up with a holding free, after they've dropped the ball or thrown it away. I would argue, that because the illegal disposal occurred first, then that is the infringement that should be penalised.

There was one particularly irksome one, where Wallis had possession, then in one motion, he dropped the ball and raised both hands to appeal for a free. The umpire took his advice; leaving an incredulous Rampe to stand the mark. Call me old fashioned, but if appealing for a free causes you to drop the ball, then you shouldn't be rewarded.

[neilfws]

I think without a doubt Richmond has been the best high pressure team over the last 3 years. Therefore they should have the worse free kick ratio, but this is not the case.

If by "worse free kick ratio" you mean frees for - frees against = the most negative: Richmond are the worst, or equal worst, in 3 of the 4 seasons 2017-2020. That was mentioned earlier in this thread and illustrated in another.

I understand the relentless focus on this statistic - it's about the only free kick statistic available to us - but really, it is often misused and has very little bearing on game outcomes or club success. I wish I could get people to believe this.

[crackedactor 01]

If by "worse free kick ratio" you mean frees for - frees against = the most negative: Richmond are the worst, or equal worst, in 3 of the 4 seasons 2017-2020. That was mentioned earlier in this thread and illustrated in another.

I understand the relentless focus on this statistic - it's about the only free kick statistic available to us - but really, it is often misused and has very little bearing on game outcomes or club success. I wish I could get people to believe this.

Not sure what stats you are looking at? Richmond were nowhere near the worse team (ratio) when it came to frees for and against in years 2019 and 2020.

[liz]

"Nige"'s greatest moment came when he mistook Aaron Bruce for JUH. Good Lord...

My favourite comment from him came about five minutes into the final term when he reckoned that what the Dogs needed to do from this point was to try to win the game.

[stevoswan]

You can roll your eyes but to put up an offensive comment and then say 'sorry if anyone took offence' is weak. It puts it back onto the person 'taking offense' as if it's their fault, as if they're a bit sensitive and have taken it wrongly......rather than you actually taking responsibility for your comment and making a genuine apology. It's straight from the Sam Newman/Eddie Maguire 'School of Not Taking Responsibility' and you've aced it's core subject 'The Art of the Half-arsed Apology'.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh boy
Presumptuous to think you’ve won

Well, he's the only one who answered those silly questions!

[The Great One]

I think without a doubt Richmond has been the best high pressure team over the last 3 years. Therefore they should have the worse free kick ratio, but this is not the case. I told an Essendon supporter friend before Sunday's game that the Bulldogs will get 12 to 16 more frees than Sydney. The final total was 13 more. The good news is himself and other supporters are starting to ask questions as to why the Bulldogs have such a prestigious position in the umpiring eyes.

I am a relatively new convert to AFL, I started watching it closely when the Super League war took hold in 1995-96. I admit there are decisions that baffle me, particularly not getting a holding the ball decision when the ball slips out in a completed tackle.

In my younger years I was a Rugby League referee from 1970 to 1992 and I know from experience that players can get their bodies between you and the ball and you can miss something. Over time a team should expect those types of decisions will even out. But they don't seem to.

Someone made the point earlier that a boundary umpire could have a better view than a field umpire and thus tip him off. Agreed. In this day and age when officials are miked up there is no reason an extra set of eyes can't be used if they are competent.

You are there to make decisions, fairly and impartially but the pressure put on you by crowds and players who try to milk decisions can get to you. Experience teaches you what to ignore and what to ping.

The fact that the Swans almost always seem to end up on the wrong end of the free kick ledger is a problem that has to be sorted out. JL doesn't seem to be one who wants to complain to the umpires boss, but in games in particular against the Bulldogs we have been copping a pasting from the umpires for a few years. Ditto Hawthorn. Is JL's strategy in this area serms flawed to me.

Game style may be the reason but this year in particular there has been significant change in that to a much more open game than previously.

If you look at the number of times Buddy is taken out when trying to mark the ball, it leads me to believe there is still resentment towards us from the afl that he signed for us rather than the Giants.

Papley is a different story. He does try and milk free kicks at times but makes it a bit obvious what he is up to. He has learnt from the master of it at Geelong who seems more able to get away with milking.

Some of the decisions on Sunday the ones against Hickey in particular, and JMAC were clearly as a result of an umpire focusing more on one team than the other.

At some point JL has to have a sit down meeting with the umpires boss and get to the bottom of what the problem is. The team will be in Melbourne for a while and a good time to bring it to the attention of those in charge.

When I was a referee I saw numerous examples of guys who you would call "home ground specials". I hated them at that point and do now. This is what worries me about playing a Victorian team in a match that matters in Melbourne with Victorian officials.

[Sandrevan]

How would you like it if someone encouraged people to get on Twitter and give you some 'candid feedback' about your job (assuming though you actually have one)? I find your post absolute poor taste and stuff of a true keyboard warrior.

Thanks for your candid feedback.

I'm surprised at your officious response to my post. Making speculative comments about someone you know nothing about is poor form. Especially when you consider the situation in NSW (and the world generally) - unemployment, under-employment and insecure employment.

Your comments seem like shooting from the hip.

[neilfws]

Not sure what stats you are looking at? Richmond were nowhere near the worse team (ratio) when it came to frees for and against in years 2019 and 2020.

I'm looking at correct stats and I did not mention 2019. I think it would help if you define what you mean by ratio. I take that to mean something divided by something else. For / Against, maybe?