Round 6 pre-match thread - vs Hawthorn, Monday 25 April, University of Tasmania Oval

[bandwagon]

Sometimes I think the coaching staff know more than we do ????

Heresy!

[Ludwig]

I find the omissions of content on the injury exasperating. Now Fox and COR are finally listed but with TBC on the return date. After 3 weeks one would think there would be something more definitive on a hamstring and an eye injury. We also know that both Amartey and Roberts were taken out of the VFL game due to concussion, so they should be on the injury list, except they're not. There has also been a lack of news on why Shledrick and McAndrew didn't play on Sunday.

I think Bell looks a bit better this year, but agree with the comments about his indecision. It would be a big improvement to his game if he could see the play developing around him more quickly. His instincts near goal are pretty good. Maybe if he could play more instinctual footy he could make a big leap in his progress. I suppose it would be more beneficial to him to stay at AFL level, but I imagine he will be replaced wither this week or next, when Papley becomes available.

I noticed had trouble sticking their tackles on a mature Geelong side. Maybe it was the rain. But it made me think that JPK might be a good inclusion against a team like Hawthorn, but I also like the mix of our current midfield, so am undecided about selection if it comes down to Bell or Kennedy.

[Aprilbr]

An update on injuries has just come through for us Swans members. Sheldrick not looking good - seeing the surgeon about his knee later this week. Roberts and Armetey on concussion protocols for 12 days.

[Ludwig]

It's hard to say what kind of injury Gus has. I would have thought that if it were an ACL there wouldn't be a question about the course of management and they have come out and said it an ACL rupture. I found that phrase difficult to interpret. So they will keep us hanging on this one for a while. It will be a big loss in development time if Gus would have to miss a large block of footy this year.

At least we've regained COR this week. He's a pretty handy depth player for a club that's lost of fair number of players to injury in the past few weeks. Luckily, we will be getting back a few in the coming several weeks, including Amartey and Roberts, who should be back from concussion protocols for the Lions' game. With Covid around, it's good to have a bid of depth to cover unexpected loss of players for a week or 2.

[Bangalore Swans]

Interesting that Lance is potentially available for selection this week but Tom P is another week away. I wonder if they would give him a run against his old team although Longmire suggested he was pretty happy with the performance of the Mac attacks according to the AFL app.

"A couple of the young key forwards came in and did a good job for us, and that's important, with Franklin and Papley and (Sam) Wicks (out), that's half of our starting six of our forward group."

That makes me think maybe not. It was also interesting he mention Sam W as well which makes me think he is rated a bit higher by the coaching staff than some on here.
James B had the highest number of pressure acts by a Swan player on Friday and I suggest that wouldn’t go unnoticed especially when combined with a goal as well.
Often one of the factors that can be overlooked , and stats usually won’t reflect this, is how well did a player undertake the role asked of him by the coaching staff ?
I feel this is probably why some of the players that supporters bemoan as not producing numbers that they consider acceptable keep getting picked.
Sometimes I think the coaching staff know more than we do ????

I can’t understand the high rating for Sam Wicks or more importantly the off the ball work that leads to this high assessment.

Barracuda articulates it really well but I’m still struggling to understand the role Wicks plays.

If I watch the game on TV, the play follows the ball and I don’t get a sense of the work Wicks does.

If I did go to the game live, then I would have to watch Wicks the whole time and miss out on watching Blakey, Buddy, Chad, Heeney and J-Mac.

Do other small forwards like Kozzie Pickett, Costanga and Liam Ryan run around and do the Wicks role?

I personally think that Bell is a better footballer than Wicks because he’s more physically imposing, sticks harder tackles and has the odd better upside moments than Wicks.

What am I missing with Wicks?

[O'Reilly Boy]

Part of the issue is that one of Wicks' jobs is to be where the ball isn't, so television is not going to be interested. As I see it, his role is to turn up in the peripheral vision of a defender in order to close off an option. This means that he doesn't always set up to be at the drop of the ball, and that he spends time shuttling around in no man's land, where he does pick up occasional possessions as the ball spills out of a contest, or a defender is forced to dump a relieving kick under pressure. That's where his goals have largely come from: you'll have noticed that he seems to come from nowhere to take an unexpected, uncontested mark, for example. That was certainly what was happening last year. This year, teams are playing a bit tighter on him, I suspect, so he's not getting those opportunities as often.

Bell strikes me as a hybrid wing-forward, with the ability to get well up the field and the tank to cover the often thankless laps up and down the ground. I agree with the analysis of his lack of composure as a finisher, but his effort is terrific, and I do think that, as is the case with any player, the opportunity to put a string of games together, to build confidence and connections with his team-mates, is what he most needs.

Someone asked whether Stephens could play the small pressure forward role. I think that he is a hybrid in and out mid—someone who can win his own ball and then do something useful with it, and that while that aspect of his game could be sacrificed to play defensive forward, there would be no point: I don't think he'd add anything to what Wicks offers, and we'd be taking him away from the game he should be developing in the midfield group. Chances are, were he to play that rather thankless, invisible-to-television forward role, we'd be having the same conversations about his low stats, lack of impact etc, simply because that is the nature of the role.

The problem for Stephens is that he has not pushed his way up the mids depth chart sufficiently, and is still ranked by the MC behind Mills, Parker, Warner, Rowbottom, McInerney, Florent, Heeney, Gulden, Kennedy. I can't see moving him out of position will be that useful for him.

On another matter, I am interested in what people think about Lloyd's future. We are playing a different game out of the back half these days, moving away from the system in which the ball was worked towards CHB (used to be Malceski's role) and then distributed down the line or to a running half-back. We seem to have much more variety in our exits these days—which is good, as teams will work out our plan A (this happened around this time last year, as teams moved quickly to deny the corridor and take out the Pyke channels option and the short 45 inboard kick from Campbell), so it is useful to be able to ring the changes within a game.

And I am also wondering how Rampe fits into the new set-up, now that we have the twin McDonald towers relieving him of taking on a big forward. I'm not being critical of either, but am thinking about how their respective roles are changing/ have changed, and whether some of the rustiness we saw in their games in recent weeks are about the adjustments they are having to make.

[Faunac8]

I can’t understand the high rating for Sam Wicks or more importantly the off the ball work that leads to this high assessment.

Barracuda articulates it really well but I’m still struggling to understand the role Wicks plays.

If I watch the game on TV, the play follows the ball and I don’t get a sense of the work Wicks does.

If I did go to the game live, then I would have to watch Wicks the whole time and miss out on watching Blakey, Buddy, Chad, Heeney and J-Mac.

Do other small forwards like Kozzie Pickett, Costanga and Liam Ryan run around and do the Wicks role?

I personally think that Bell is a better footballer than Wicks because he’s more physically imposing, sticks harder tackles and has the odd better upside moments than Wicks.

What am I missing with Wicks?

Statistically when you compare Sam W James B and Ben there is not a great deal of difference apart from one category and that is tackles where Sam is around a couple of tackles a game ahead.
It’s not much but when you are looking at that role and what the expectations are of the coaches it may be that is why he is regarded as well as he is by them.
Now personally I think Ben can surpass him if he gets a reasonable run in the firsts and starts to feel that he belongs and fulfils his role but at this stage I think it is that tackling pressure that Sam offers that probably gives him the edge.
In my opinion we can only play one of them ongoing once Tom P is back so its a great position for us to be in having three players fighting for the one position

[Ruck'n'Roll]

Super interested to see how Ladhams goes. Expectations weren’t high based on VFL form but he was very good against WC.
Could we develop into a team (when Hickey is back) with 2 rucks that are a headache for the opposition? Kinda like Melbourne? Or is that madness and we would be too tall and immobile.

Amongst the football media, Gawn/Jackson (and Marshall/Ryder) seem to be demonstrating the potentiality of 2 rucks to those that have forgotten. The you-only-need-one-ruckman chorus will as usual cite Gawn/Jackson as an anomoly, but as a card carrying member of the Paul-Roos-2-Rucks school of thought, rather than develop into a team with 2 rucks, I'd like to see us return to a team with 2 rucks .

Interesting that Lance is potentially available for selection this week but Tom P is another week away. I wonder if they would give him a run against his old team although Longmire suggested he was pretty happy with the performance of the Mac attacks according to the AFL app.
"A couple of the young key forwards came in and did a good job for us, and that's important, with Franklin and Papley and (Sam) Wicks (out), that's half of our starting six of our forward group."

Footy Classified also touched on this, Lloyd has suggested that L Mac looked far expansive/happier without Buddy. Then they spent spent some time not discussing the sacrilegious thought, that maybe Buddy could be given more games off during the season, and wondering exactly how Horse felt about the changing of the guard, our 35 year old champion and his 20 year of prosepctive successor.

[O'Reilly Boy]

I meant McCartins, not McDonalds, above.

[Nico]

Statistically when you compare Sam W James B and Ben there is not a great deal of difference apart from one category and that is tackles where Sam is around a couple of tackles a game ahead.
It’s not much but when you are looking at that role and what the expectations are of the coaches it may be that is why he is regarded as well as he is by them.
Now personally I think Ben can surpass him if he gets a reasonable run in the firsts and starts to feel that he belongs and fulfils his role but at this stage I think it is that tackling pressure that Sam offers that probably gives him the edge.
In my opinion we can only play one of them ongoing once Tom P is back so its a great position for us to be in having three players fighting for the one position

On form Ben Ronke has to play. What Wicks provides as a defensive forward Ben has that, and moves around a lot more and gets his own footy. His tackling and pressure last week were excellent. When you have a player like him being very lively it adds another dimension to the forward line and a headache to opponents. WCE players couldn't keep up with him. His gather and delivery to Heeney was high class and his vision to pick up Heeney was very early in his possession.

[O'Reilly Boy]

On form Ben Ronke has to play. What Wicks provides as a defensive forward Ben has that, and moves around a lot more and gets his own footy. His tackling and pressure last week were excellent. When you have a player like him being very lively it adds another dimension to the forward line and a headache to opponents. WCE players couldn't keep up with him. His gather and delivery to Heeney was high class and his vision to pick up Heeney was very early in his possession.

100% agree. Ronke has been a bit of a revelation the past couple of weeks. The energy he brings is remarkable. He and Papley playing together with the tall timber bringing the ball to ground and Hayward/Heeney/Parker roving would be a monstrous handful for any defence.

[rb4x]

It's hard to say what kind of injury Gus has. I would have thought that if it were an ACL there wouldn't be a question about the course of management and they have come out and said it an ACL rupture. I found that phrase difficult to interpret. So they will keep us hanging on this one for a while. It will be a big loss in development time if Gus would have to miss a large block of footy this year.

At least we've regained COR this week. He's a pretty handy depth player for a club that's lost of fair number of players to injury in the past few weeks. Luckily, we will be getting back a few in the coming several weeks, including Amartey and Roberts, who should be back from concussion protocols for the Lions' game. With Covid around, it's good to have a bid of depth to cover unexpected loss of players for a week or 2.

Or have we regained COR? Shown as TBC in the latest injury update.

[Rod_]

Agree, Ronke was retained on the list as his potential was high. Seems to be injury free and nice to see him playing at the higher level. Has definitely show a bit and used his high energy and skill to great effect. Retained in the starting side IMO.

Wicks has a different role and therefore needs to be fit to play. Two way runner and as others have said, has a lock down role, generally. Based on what I saw of the VFL game, will need to be fit..
Bell probably fits in the middle of the 2 players above. A little attack and a little defence, however 3rd in pecking order.
Paps back next week and 2 above will miss.

[barracuda]

Part of the issue is that one of Wicks' jobs is to be where the ball isn't, so television is not going to be interested. As I see it, his role is to turn up in the peripheral vision of a defender in order to close off an option. This means that he doesn't always set up to be at the drop of the ball, and that he spends time shuttling around in no man's land, where he does pick up occasional possessions as the ball spills out of a contest, or a defender is forced to dump a relieving kick under pressure. That's where his goals have largely come from: you'll have noticed that he seems to come from nowhere to take an unexpected, uncontested mark, for example. That was certainly what was happening last year. This year, teams are playing a bit tighter on him, I suspect, so he's not getting those opportunities as often.

Bell strikes me as a hybrid wing-forward, with the ability to get well up the field and the tank to cover the often thankless laps up and down the ground. I agree with the analysis of his lack of composure as a finisher, but his effort is terrific, and I do think that, as is the case with any player, the opportunity to put a string of games together, to build confidence and connections with his team-mates, is what he most needs.

Someone asked whether Stephens could play the small pressure forward role. I think that he is a hybrid in and out mid—someone who can win his own ball and then do something useful with it, and that while that aspect of his game could be sacrificed to play defensive forward, there would be no point: I don't think he'd add anything to what Wicks offers, and we'd be taking him away from the game he should be developing in the midfield group. Chances are, were he to play that rather thankless, invisible-to-television forward role, we'd be having the same conversations about his low stats, lack of impact etc, simply because that is the nature of the role.

The problem for Stephens is that he has not pushed his way up the mids depth chart sufficiently, and is still ranked by the MC behind Mills, Parker, Warner, Rowbottom, McInerney, Florent, Heeney, Gulden, Kennedy. I can't see moving him out of position will be that useful for him.

On another matter, I am interested in what people think about Lloyd's future. We are playing a different game out of the back half these days, moving away from the system in which the ball was worked towards CHB (used to be Malceski's role) and then distributed down the line or to a running half-back. We seem to have much more variety in our exits these days—which is good, as teams will work out our plan A (this happened around this time last year, as teams moved quickly to deny the corridor and take out the Pyke channels option and the short 45 inboard kick from Campbell), so it is useful to be able to ring the changes within a game.

And I am also wondering how Rampe fits into the new set-up, now that we have the twin McDonald towers relieving him of taking on a big forward. I'm not being critical of either, but am thinking about how their respective roles are changing/ have changed, and whether some of the rustiness we saw in their games in recent weeks are about the adjustments they are having to make.

Kudos on your post, quality analysis

[wolftone57]

Has Papley ever played a game in the twos? I feel like he mightn't of

But he will. He needs to get match fit. He is tracking for 2 weeks time

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