2022 AFL National Draft and Rookie Draft 28 & 29 November 2022

[liz]

There’s so much about the post above that horrifies me - mostly that indigenous players can or should be considered as a distinct group, rather than assessed individually on their own merits.

If it in anyway resembles our club’s attitude towards drafting I am doubly horrified.

[royboy42]

There’s so much about the post above that horrifies me - mostly that indigenous players can or should be considered as a distinct group, rather than assessed individually on their own merits.

If it in anyway resembles our club’s attitude towards drafting I am doubly horrified.

It was a deeply disappointing post.

[Aprilbr]

There’s so much about the post above that horrifies me - mostly that indigenous players can or should be considered as a distinct group, rather than assessed individually on their own merits.

If it in anyway resembles our club’s attitude towards drafting I am doubly horrified.

Agree on this point, Liz. We should resist steroe typing people based on background. Some Anglo background players recruited to clubs end up being trouble makers eg De Goey and many others don't. Just like any other ethnic grouping. Goodes was no trouble maker and same for Micky O.

[stevoswan]

There’s so much about the post above that horrifies me - mostly that indigenous players can or should be considered as a distinct group, rather than assessed individually on their own merits.

If it in anyway resembles our club’s attitude towards drafting I am doubly horrified.

It was a deeply disappointing post.

Agree on this point, Liz. We should resist steroe typing people based on background. Some Anglo background players recruited to clubs end up being trouble makers eg De Goey and many others don't. Just like any other ethnic grouping. Goodes was no trouble maker and same for Micky O.

Oh dear.....with that sort of reaction/outrage (or plain misunderstanding of a post), it's a wonder anyone writes anything about any First Nations player. Must be hard to breathe up in that rarified air......

[i'm-uninformed2]

To be fair to Ludwig, he was reflecting on our club's recruiting history and wondering why. [And as he said re what happened with Goodes - and my rather strident views on that have been well expressed on here - the AFL should do more to help Indigenous players.] And he's not wrong on our history in recent times.

Since Goodes and O'Loughlin, we traded in Buddy, drafted Jetta, we have Bell and we tried Taylor.

There were a couple of others like Armstrong and Edwards who briefly passed through, but not many. Indigenous players should be judged on their merits, but the fact is our club does not have a great track record of recruiting and successfully developing Indigenous players in the last 10 to 15 years. I'd hope and lean towards it being a coincidence than a conscious choice, but the numbers ain't great. And if Buddy retires next year and Bell is off the list, we'd be without an Indigenous player - and be one of the few clubs (if not the only) without an Indigenous player.

[dejavoodoo44]

Yes, we haven't recruited many indigenous players of late, but I think that the problem is more with the AFL's next generation academy scam, rather than any negative attitudes from our recruitment staff. That is, since 2016 the NGAs have essentially taken most of the best young indigenous players out of the open draft and tied them to whichever team was allocated their particular zone.

While we can develop indigenous kids through our academy, that's probably a much more difficult task in NSW, than what it is in the traditional AFL states. In many indigenous communities in those states, Aussies Rules is even more of a religion than it is in suburban Melbourne. While in NSW and Queensland, rugby league is predominantly the game of choice in the communities. So, it's a much smaller talent pool, that would require genuine development of players; rather than just skimming off the cream of the crop.

[Blood Fever]

There’s so much about the post above that horrifies me - mostly that indigenous players can or should be considered as a distinct group, rather than assessed individually on their own merits.

If it in anyway resembles our club’s attitude towards drafting I am doubly horrified.

Isn't part of the problem as expressed by the Indigenous players themselves that there are cultural differences that are not addressed in a sensitive manner? I hesitated before I wrote this slightly anxious that I might be maligned.

[Mel_C]

I read an article last week on the Swans app that we are launching the Sydney Swans First Nations Academy. It's not just about playing football, but also includes coaching, strength and conditioning, and administration. It's a 10 week program thst can lead to a scholarship with the Sydney Swans Academy.

[Ludwig]

I don't interpret Liz's comments as a reflection on me, but rather the content of my posting. I too am horrified. But I feel that the statistical evidence is so strong that it would seem highly improbable that we did not consider indigenous players differently. I too would hope that our club does not do this. But the evidence cannot be ignored.

I researched this about 2 weeks ago, and was quite upset by what I found. I thought it over for quite a while before posting the comment. Part of it had to do with a comment KB made about KPPs not being very good in our part of the draft, but as noted earlier, I thought Isaac Keeler would be a very good selection for us who was likely to come into play in our part of the draft. We could dismiss this as a KB deflection, so I wouldn't read too much into it.

The question for me is whether it is valid to raise the fact that we have only drafted 1 indigenous player in 24 years who was capable of making our best 22, and whether this was due to a bias against selecting indigenous players in the draft.

There is a difference between being racist and not being anti-racist, which is more a passive bias due to the conflicts between institutional racism and list management responsibilities which have nothing to do with race or ethnicity. In drafting policy, this might result in a bias against players with a higher prospect of go home factor, for instance.

Is it wise to consider the go home factor in drafting? And if so, does it reflect a racial bias if indigenous players constitute a high disproportional amount of go home factor?

The point of my original post was to evaluate if our low drafting rate for indigenous players was more than just a statistical anomaly due purely to chance, or were there other factors representing a racial bias in our drafting strategy. It is interesting to contrast our drafting with Hawthorn, who have drafted many more talented indigenous players during this period than we have, and how it is alleged it was handled during the Clarkson era.

The subject matter is deep and convoluted.

I haven't come to any conclusion about this. I made my comment because I wanted to hear the opinion of others on the topic.

[Blood Fever]

I don't interpret Liz's comments as a reflection on me, but rather the content of my posting. I too am horrified. But I feel that the statistical evidence is so strong that it would seem highly improbable that we did not consider indigenous players differently. I too would hope that our club does not do this. But the evidence cannot be ignored.

I researched this about 2 weeks ago, and was quite upset by what I found. I thought it over for quite a while before posting the comment. Part of it had to do with a comment KB made about KPPs not being very good in our part of the draft, but as noted earlier, I thought Isaac Keeler would be a very good selection for us who was likely to come into play in our part of the draft. We could dismiss this as a KB deflection, so I wouldn't read too much into it.

The question for me is whether it is valid to raise the fact that we have only drafted 1 indigenous player in 24 years who was capable of making our best 22, and whether this was due to a bias against selecting indigenous players in the draft.

There is a difference between being racist and not being anti-racist, which is more a passive bias due to the conflicts between institutional racism and list management responsibilities which have nothing to do with race or ethnicity. In drafting policy, this might result in a bias against players with a higher prospect of go home factor, for instance.

Is it wise to consider the go home factor in drafting? And if so, does it reflect a racial bias if indigenous players constitute a high disproportional amount of go home factor?

The point of my original post was to evaluate if our low drafting rate for indigenous players was more than just a statistical anomaly due purely to chance, or were there other factors representing a racial bias in our drafting strategy. It is interesting to contrast our drafting with Hawthorn, who have drafted many more talented indigenous players during this period than we have, and how it is alleged it was handled during the Clarkson era.

The subject matter is deep and convoluted.

I haven't come to any conclusion about this. I made my comment because I wanted to hear the opinion of others on the topic.

Not an easy subject. Go home factor has to be high on our list of considerations. Swans appear to have developed a great camaraderie among the young group of players and have got them to sign on consistently over the past few years with Dawson being the exception. Maybe having Cox as an assistant helps with WA boys. I don't know the stats on indigenous players compared to others in this area. Interested in others' thoughts if any.

[Aprilbr]

Not an easy subject. Go home factor has to be high on our list of considerations. Swans appear to have developed a great camaraderie among the young group of players and have got them to sign on consistently over the past few years with Dawson being the exception. Maybe having Cox as an assistant helps with WA boys. I don't know the stats on indigenous players compared to others in this area. Interested in others' thoughts if any.

BF, I am not sure that the go home factor is a major consideration for us in drafting talent? My understanding is that we back our system to keep them happy and draft "best available". I know that GWS and Brisbane have a higher focus than us on go home, the latter favouring country Victorian over metro players for that reason.

[Ludwig]

To be fair to Ludwig, he was reflecting on our club's recruiting history and wondering why. [And as he said re what happened with Goodes - and my rather strident views on that have been well expressed on here - the AFL should do more to help Indigenous players.] And he's not wrong on our history in recent times.

Since Goodes and O'Loughlin, we traded in Buddy, drafted Jetta, we have Bell and we tried Taylor.

There were a couple of others like Armstrong and Edwards who briefly passed through, but not many. Indigenous players should be judged on their merits, but the fact is our club does not have a great track record of recruiting and successfully developing Indigenous players in the last 10 to 15 years. I'd hope and lean towards it being a coincidence than a conscious choice, but the numbers ain't great. And if Buddy retires next year and Bell is off the list, we'd be without an Indigenous player - and be one of the few clubs (if not the only) without an Indigenous player.

I was clear about differentiating between open draft players and other kinds of recruiting. Established players like Buddy, and even Edwards, who had been around for a while, had a history demonstrating that there were no flight risk factors associated with their indigenous backgrounds. Armstrong came home to his club of choice and Bell is a local player who came through the academy.

It was unfortunate about Taylor. I have wondered whether that experience has tainted our drafting strategy.

Jetta only played 6 years for us, followed by 5 at the Eagles, so we only got about half a playing career from him.

The 2 WA clubs absorb a large proportion of the local indigenous player talent pool. Many who do get drafted by interstate teams end up back in WA. The cultural differences of indigenous players should be respected. Even though I am critical of players claiming a need to go home, I don't think this should apply to indigenous players.The need to be near family is real factor that has to be respected. Part of the distortion in drafting indigenous players is due to this, and is justified.

[Blood Fever]

BF, I am not sure that the go home factor is a major consideration for us in drafting talent? My understanding is that we back our system to keep them happy and draft "best available". I know that GWS and Brisbane have a higher focus than us on go home, the latter favouring country Victorian over metro players for that reason.

We take the issue head on I guess by backing our system as you say. Hopefully we can maintain the environment with our current group.

[rickmat]

Victoria, SA and WA have indigenous teenages who are recruited from NT and Northern WA and put into mostly private schools as boarders, providing them with an education and of course playing AFL. NSW and QLD private schools don't have a high level of AFL programs in their states and so don't have many indigenous kids in their programs. But they do play rugby or league. So there is still a big gap the Swans, Giants, Lions and Gold Coast need to bridge to create a pathway for indigenous recruits of school age. However as a previous RWO comment mentioned, the Swans have instigated a well thought out and rounded indigenous 10 week whole of indigenous program which is a good start. We need to hook in Micky O's program as well as he is the perfect hero to attract talented indigenous kids.

[i'm-uninformed2]

I was clear about differentiating between open draft players and other kinds of recruiting. Established players like Buddy, and even Edwards, who had been around for a while, had a history demonstrating that there were no flight risk factors associated with their indigenous backgrounds. Armstrong came home to his club of choice and Bell is a local player who came through the academy.

It was unfortunate about Taylor. I have wondered whether that experience has tainted our drafting strategy.

Jetta only played 6 years for us, followed by 5 at the Eagles, so we only got about half a playing career from him.

The 2 WA clubs absorb a large proportion of the local indigenous player talent pool. Many who do get drafted by interstate teams end up back in WA. The cultural differences of indigenous players should be respected. Even though I am critical of players claiming a need to go home, I don't think this should apply to indigenous players.The need to be near family is real factor that has to be respected. Part of the distortion in drafting indigenous players is due to this, and is justified.

My use of the word recruiting as a catch all at the start of my post was clumsy. As I made clear later, we’re generally not good at drafting, and developing Indigenous talent in recent years. Unfortunately, our record pre dates Taylor, so I don’t think that’s the issue.

Others have presented some valid cases for why we have an under-representation compared to other clubs such as the NGAs, or familial ties meaning they like to stay closer to home.

But for a club that takes justifiable pride in Micky O and Adam being two of the Indigenous greatest players (and people) that the game has seen, our recent record is poor.