Hawthorn racism review

[KTigers]

He should never have been appointed in the first place.

But it reinforces the need for the investigation to be run truly independent of the AFL, not via the Integrity Unit.

The "Integrity Unit"? Really? Who dreamed up that title? These guys have been watching too many movies. They are all
AFL employees, right? Why not just call them what they are? The help.

[bloodspirit]

This is what "Win At All Costs" can entail and look like. Hawthorn are probably not the first club to do stuff like this.
Y'know, it's just a game. A few million people in Australia (including us) get all worked up about it. But the other 99.9%
of the people of the planet don't even know it exists, let alone give a @@@@ about it.

I thought something similar and was also reminded of Essendon's 'Whatever It Takes'. Time to remember this is only a game and there are - and should be - limits.

While high performance environments are typically and intentionally challenging, there need to be explicit reminders about the dangers and limits of pushing to the limits and not sliding past them. Another challenge (for every organisation) is to find a safe way to enable whistle-blowing.

***

Just in relation to the breaking news: I am encouraged that the AFL is going to appoint and independent, external group to review these allegations, and that the group will include Indigenous representation.

I'm also impressed that consideration is being given to standing Alastair Clarkson and Chris Fagan down pending the results of the investigation. I guess this is an easier decision to make on the eve of the off-season (although perhaps not given that it's also the eve of the trade period). I think that one relevant consideration is what might be the penalties if the allegations are sustained? Will there careers as coaches be ended (at least temporarily)? If so, then it seems appropriate to stand them down now. But if not, I don't think it's so appropriate.

Another thought is: while these allegations are horrifying, the conduct alleged does not appear to be criminal and it is concerning that terms which are taken from the criminal law, like 'complainant' and 'accused', are being used in the discussion. At this early stage my view is that while these allegations are highly relevant to the staff involved's ongoing involvement in the game, these incidents, even if admitted, do not make them criminals and they shouldn't be treated as criminals.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out and how much (if any) improvement the AFL shows compared to past incidents which they have just sought to manage serious incidents in the most pragmatic and commercial way possible using spin doctors.

[bloodspirit]

Kings council

I haven't checked but I think Queen's Counsel appointed during the reign of the Queen (not sure if I'm using the right terminology here) remain QCs. Just as there used to be KC's long into the reign of Queen Elizabeth II (I can't imagine there still could be (m)any practising).

[aardvark]

I haven't checked but I think Queen's Counsel appointed during the reign of the Queen (not sure if I'm using the right terminology here) remain QCs. Just as there used to be KC's long into the reign of Queen Elizabeth II (I can't imagine there still could be (m)any practising).

They're calling it Kings council on the radio but they're probably as ignorant as I am. I wonder how Horse is feeling about his mate Clarko now?

[RogueSwan]

... Another thought is: while these allegations are horrifying, the conduct alleged does not appear to be criminal and it is concerning that terms which are taken from the criminal law, like 'complainant' and 'accused', are being used in the discussion. ...

I guess it could be considered a WHS matter, amongst other things, which can lead to criminal convictions [not a lawyer ].

[KTigers]

In response to Bloodspirit ; I agree, people are innocent until proven guilty. If the investigation really is independent and really
is external, then that is good. Someone will be paying them though and I presume that will be the AFL. So there is a bit of an
asterisk next to it. Pity these folk won't work for free. They are very serious allegations. A footy club getting involved in a
player's partners pregnancy? Yikes.

[Captain]

In response to Bloodspirit ; I agree, people are innocent until proven guilty. If the investigation really is independent and really
is external, then that is good. Someone will be paying them though and I presume that will be the AFL. So there is a bit of an
asterisk next to it. Pity these folk won't work for free. They are very serious allegations. A footy club getting involved in a
player's partners pregnancy? Yikes.

The AFL paying is no different to a company paying an auditor for an independent audit report on their financial statements.

Pretty unreasonable to expect 'these folk' to work for free??

[i'm-uninformed2]

Fagan steps aside for now

Club Statement - Chris Fagan

- - - Updated - - -

[dejavoodoo44]

The Lions have released a statement, saying that Chris Fagan has agreed to "take a leave of absence from the Club so he can fully cooperate in the investigation."

Not sure what that really means, considering that it's now the off-season for Brisbane, but I assume that it throws a bit more pressure on Clarkson and North?

[liz]

The Lions have released a statement, saying that Chris Fagan has agreed to "take a leave of absence from the Club so he can fully cooperate in the investigation."

Not sure what that really means, considering that it's now the off-season for Brisbane, but I assume that it throws a bit more pressure on Clarkson and North?

It's not really the off-season. Trading starts as early as next week, I think (maybe the week after) and then there is preparation for the draft. The senior coach may not be the Number One for those activities but they'd still have a fair input into decisions.

[707]

By the way, let's also remember: Kennett gets a lot of focus (and fairly so in some cases), but the Hawks President during much of this was Andrew Newbold. He was one of those who ferociously argued against racism being involved in the booing of Goodes, including when Sydney raised it with him after a game and when some of his own Indigenous players raised it. He now sits on the AFL Commission.

Newbold needs to be held in the same contempt as Fitzpatrick and Maguire

In some ways I'm hoping what has been reported is true because Hawks supporters were among the worse offenders against Goodes and their supporters were insufferable during their peak years. I've got a long hate list of other clubs but the "family" club is right at the pointy end with Dogs and my hometown Cows

[Kafka's Ghost]

Newbold needs to be held in the same contempt as Fitzpatrick and Maguire

Fully agree.


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

[707]

My first thought was how will Gill try and suppress and downplay this.

He wishes he'd gone straight after the boroadcast deal was announced, peak time.

The massive AFL PR machine wheels seamlessly into action to minimise damage. No where to hide once the GF is done.

[bloodspirit]

They're calling it Kings council on the radio but they're probably as ignorant as I am. I wonder how Horse is feeling about his mate Clarko now?

They're might also be differences between States. NSW shifted to using the appellation SC (Senior Counsel) years ago but I think Victoria still has QCs and, now, KCs.

[Maltopia]

Re the Hawthorn saga, some thoughts which may be shared by some of you.

I am not a First Nations person, but I work in community services where many clients are First Nations people and very tired of the lack of real change. Just refer to Tony Armstrong’s Tweet today about stuff that is still going on, such as the number of Aboriginal deaths in custody (since the 1987 Royal Commission).

- AFL Commission etc would be very disappointed re the timing of the report being completed around this time and news stories coming out today. Would have been much better for them PR wise if it came in after the GF, especially if we won. All their celebrations around “footy is back” (post COVID) and the marvellous season etc are eroded by the allegations.

- On face value (without knowing if they dragged their feet or if the board vote was very tight), credit to current Hawthorn management for commissioning the report. Club still has a lot of work to do of course, but I think it is important they did the report, considering the next point.

- Racism is entrenched in many parts of our country, and football clubs are not immune. There will be more reports etc coming out in the coming years from the 16 clubs that haven’t yet done a major review. On a related point re possible glass houses and stones, our Don Pyke was part of the Adelaide pre season camp debacle.

- Just because we and Goodes were heavily targeted in recent years, doesn’t mean we have clean hands with other First Nations players at our club, so personally, I would not want to crow on about how bad the other clubs (Collingwood and Hawthorn currently) have been.

- Be interesting to watch Caro Wilson and others analyse this. 7/Fox media types were extolling what a great person Fagan was on the back of Jarrod Berry saying “I would do anything for that man.” Of course people are complex and have good and bad in them, and some evolve and learn.

- Most importantly, how terrible for the impacted players and families who suffered and still suffer from the alleged actions.

- What do the players and families want re reconciliation ? Banning certain coaches/officials and promises of more education and player welfare programs/monitoring may be a convenient response by the AFL, but is that what the players/families want? I’d suggest timely public apologies and acknowledgement of entrenched racism is a starting point for the real change that is desired.