Match thread. THE GRAND FINAL!!! Swans v Cats.

[TheBloods]

Both of those guys have played one senior game from memory, TB. Their reserves form has been OK but not outstanding. Neither has been knocking down the selectors' doors in the second half of the season. That's hardly a body of work from which one can confidently see them as saviours of the midfield. They may well develop into stars, I sincerely hope they do, but its far too early to know. They both need a very good pre-season to threaten for senior selection in Round One, 2023.

They are clean . They dont double grab or fumble . They can win the footy , they move in traffic. Thats what you want. They wont get it right all the time but i bet they would be better than some we 've got already and we have to start putting together a flag winning midfield at some point . Parker wont be around forever and Mills and Chad cant do it all . Wear the losses now as we put together a young midfield group and we will reap the rewards later on .

What else are we keeping them on the list for if we are going to be too scared to give them a crack because they are young ?

[AppleCore]

It is interesting how there is so little emphasis on winning the minor premiership. It's certainly good enough for the EPL. They don't
even have a finals series, though obviously they can afford and have a willingness to have a balanced draw. In MLB winning your division
and league is given kudos even if you don't win the WS. Though I happen to think after a 162 game regular season, the team with
the most wins is the best team.

The story here relates in part to the origins of the game. Cricket was initially the premier sport in Melbourne and came to occupy most of the prime sites for sporting venues. Football clubs then became either an arm of the cricket club or reached some ground sharing arrangement with the cricket club. Initially, cricket clubs benefited from such arrangements as the much larger crowds attracted by football matches meant a handy cash flow that built many grandstands and other amenities. Later, when the football clubs began to flex their muscles, the cricket clubs realised that they had nurtured a monster. Such ground sharing meant that the time of starting and finishing the football season was determined by the cricket season and resulted in their being insufficient Saturdays to play both a home and an away match against every other team in the competition. This meant that deciding the winner of the competition on the basis of most victories during the home-and-away season (as is done, for example, in English soccer) would be grossly unfair and resulted in the institution of a system of playing finals between the leading teams. This meant that even a team that had suffered from a poor draw during the home-and-away season would still have a chance of being the ultimate victor. Hence, "minor premiers" has rightly always been regarded as of little significance.

[AppleCore]

It is interesting how there is so little emphasis on winning the minor premiership. It's certainly good enough for the EPL. They don't
even have a finals series, though obviously they can afford and have a willingness to have a balanced draw. In MLB winning your division
and league is given kudos even if you don't win the WS. Though I happen to think after a 162 game regular season, the team with
the most wins is the best team.

The story here relates in part to the origins of the game. Cricket was initially the premier sport in Melbourne and came to occupy most of the prime sites for sporting venues. Football clubs then became either an arm of the cricket club or reached some ground sharing arrangement with the cricket club. Initially, cricket clubs benefited from such arrangements as the much larger crowds attracted by football matches meant a handy cash flow that built many grandstands and other amenities. Later, when the football clubs began to flex their muscles, the cricket clubs realised that they had nurtured a monster. Such ground sharing meant that the time of starting and finishing the football season was determined by the cricket season and resulted in their being insufficient Saturdays to play both a home and an away match against every other team in the competition. This meant that deciding the winner of the competition on the basis of most victories during the home-and-away season (as is done, for example, in English soccer) would be grossly unfair and resulted in the institution of a system of playing finals between the leading teams. This meant that even a team that had suffered from a poor draw during the home-and-away season would still have a chance of being the ultimate victor. Hence, "minor premiers" has rightly always been regarded as of little significance.

[Nico]

The midfield will be fine, plenty of youth coming through there. Likewise the backline.

Our lack of a strong ruckman and key forward are the bigger issues. Hickey, Buddy and Reid are all the wrong side of 30 and injury prone. Not much is coming though to replace them aside from Logan. All 3 were terrible in the GF.

I would love to see no more Buddy and make Logan the main man. Amartey needs more of a run as well. We also need to trade for someone like Brodie Grundy (though I appreciate that is unlikely).

Will Gould to the forward line.

[i'm-uninformed2]

Never mind the third quarter, how about the opening bounce? They dominated us from the first moment.

They did. Which goes to my earlier post, and Liz's which is player management over a season and rotations/TOG for recent games.

[Roadrunner]

Good post. Let's hear more from you NSBear :-)

+1????

[Roadrunner]

Midfield is a huge concern . Its going nowhere fast. Gus and Roberts need to be there rd 1 next year. Cop the losses if they come, it will be worth it in the long run !

It’s still a work in progress but it got us to the GF so it ain’t that bad TB! Hope Gus and Roberts step up next year but I can’t see 2 spots becoming available without injuries. Our weakest link at the moment is Clarke, but he has played a role and was better than we expected. So I can see Gus getting a few games but Roberts needs a half season more, at least, at VFL level to earn a spot in midfield.

[Mark26]

Will Gould to the forward line.

He might slot a few from 60 too! I don't know about him playing forward, I just want to see him play (for us).

[Roadrunner]

They are clean . They dont double grab or fumble . They can win the footy , they move in traffic. Thats what you want. They wont get it right all the time but i bet they would be better than some we 've got already and we have to start putting together a flag winning midfield at some point . Parker wont be around forever and Mills and Chad cant do it all . Wear the losses now as we put together a young midfield group and we will reap the rewards later on .

What else are we keeping them on the list for if we are going to be too scared to give them a crack because they are young ?

Yep, they may be clean and not fumble etc, but so far at VFL level. Don’t get me wrong- I hope you will be proved right but you are making an assumption that they can play the same way in the firsts, against a different class of opposition.

This is a risky extrapolation as we’ve had several players do well at reserve level (as has every team) who then struggle at the pointy end. I’m sure if their form will warrant it, they will be given opportunities- nothing to do with their being young, as shown by Errol’s example.

[Ludwig]

I can't see Clarke being in the team next year. He might not even make the cut this year, despite playing the last third of the season. His inclusion just happened to coincide with our winning streak, which has now come to an end. The defensive forward specialist can be a good role against certain teams, but I don't see it as being a primary spot to be filled.

Of the 2021 + draftees, I think Sheldrick has the best chance of breaking into the senior side, but it's hard to see who he replaces. Both Campbell and Cunningham could easily be ahead in getting back into the seniors, while we should be looking for a spot for Gould, even though none is evident without shuffling a player or 2 out of the defence.

I would rate Hugo Hall-Kahan ahead of Roberts in the queue for who is next in line after Sheldrick, mainly because of his speed and athleticism. HHK, like Roberts, is a skillful player and a good decision maker. HHk looks to be able to handle any outside position, while Roberts could go either inside or outside. I rate Roberts very highly, but it's difficult to put a development timeline on him. He could make up for his deficiencies in one pre-season, or it might take a few, but he should get there in the end.

[mcs]

It’s still a work in progress but it got us to the GF so it ain’t that bad TB! Hope Gus and Roberts step up next year but I can’t see 2 spots becoming available without injuries. Our weakest link at the moment is Clarke, but he has played a role and was better than we expected. So I can see Gus getting a few games but Roberts needs a half season more, at least, at VFL level to earn a spot in midfield.

It is sheer lunacy to think it is that far off being a hugely competitive midfield group. It has a good overall age profile, and you don't win 18 games in a season if your midfield isn't doing a lot right. There are gaps to be filled, but the idea it is mediocre is utter nonsense.

It is also funny how some players are expected must be given lots of exposure and time to improve, but then for others their papers are marked at first sight.

Sigh, it's going to be a long summer of 'told you so' and 'the oracle says this'.....how long until Rd 1? [emoji1787][emoji1787]

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[rickmat]

Yes, I was only thinking the other day about trying Gould as a key forward. He has the physic, marking and kicking attributes. Worth a go in pre-season. I also feel Sheldrick will be a gun inside midfielder very soon. He is a ball magnet and skilful for one so young. Beetson obviously saw these attributes which is why he was picked as our first draft pick. Unfortunately Cunningham is now struggling for a spot in the 23 and Campbell needs a run of games to gain confidence and show us why we picked him so high. Go Swannies, you good things in 23

[TheBloods]

Yep, they may be clean and not fumble etc, but so far at VFL level. Don’t get me wrong- I hope you will be proved right but you are making an assumption that they can play the same way in the firsts, against a different class of opposition.

This is a risky extrapolation as we’ve had several players do well at reserve level (as has every team) who then struggle at the pointy end. I’m sure if their form will warrant it, they will be given opportunities- nothing to do with their being young, as shown by Errol’s example.

They might not be much , we wont know until we try . All we know is what we have tried hasnt worked so we need to make changes . Madness to say we cant make changes to a midfield group that just got their backsides handed to them !

[Velour&Ruffles]

Brett Kirks 'special brand of crap' as another poster so eloquently (and stupidly) put it may be our greatest asset over the long summer.

I agree with you. And anyone who would make that initial comment is clearly someone who didn't actually see Kirk in action on the field. He was a sensational leader and his on-field bake of Nick Davis, which prompted his "Nick Davis Come to Savis" heroics in 2005, is the stuff of legend. Made of steel and utterly uncompromising. I only wish some of that "special brand of crap" could be bottled.

[troyjones2525]

They might not be much , we wont know until we try . All we know is what we have tried hasnt worked so we need to make changes . Madness to say we cant make changes to a midfield group that just got their backsides handed to them !

Yes the midfield group got their backsides handed to them by an aging team that was built and primed for that very game. Geelong got everything right this year. We almost did however I don't believe, unlike Geelong, that at the start of pre-season Longmire and Co were getting together planning on our current young side to be cherry ripe on Grand Final day! Yes they obviously were hopeful and optimistic like all of us, but to be realistic we most definitely overacheived this year!

So really it wasn't a bad effort from our current midfield group to help us become the 2nd best side in the league at this young stage in their development! So why change now, natural improvement will get this group there.

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