Rnd 9 - Pre Match List - vs Fremantle at SCG at 1:45 PM, Saturday 13 May 2023

[waswan]

Caleb Serong ? Tom Green ?

[liz]

Campbell is a line breaking mid, move out whoever or add him to the rotation.

Move Gulden to the wing permanently
Play Stephens as a defender

Sheezel from North is 3yrs younger and averaging 30 touches

Campbell is the best rated mid from his draft class, 3 yrs ago.

I am not entirely sure what you're arguing here. Sheezel is gaining his 30 touches a game playing across half-back. It's one of the easiest positions to pick up lots of touches if you don't have many pure defensive responsibilities (as is the case with Sheezel relative to Campbell, who last weekend did a pretty good job blanketing McCreery) and the ball is in your section of the ground a lot (as it is for North's defense). I'm not trying to put down Sheezel here - he looks a fine player and doesn't just play loose - but he doesn't provide a good argument for how young players can dominate in the midfield. They can. But he doesn't.

It's also not true that Campbell was the best rate mid from his draft class. He was more of a half-forward than an onballer in all the U18 level games I watched. He was low a possession, high impact kind of player, not a classic in-the-guts midfielder.

I do think that Campbell will eventually provide better value elsewhere on the ground, but that doesn't mean that his stint in defence won't help to develop his game. It already has. We can see it.

Stephen's most outstanding asset is his ability to run length of the ground, at pace, time after time after time. I think he's actually been continuing to do that this season. I attended a briefing from one of the assistant coaches two weekends ago, and he pointed out that the wingmen (and the half-forwards like Hayward) are not measured on how many possessions they get, and are not expected to get more than a dozen or so in most games. Clearly he's done something to earn the wrath of the coaching team to find himself in the VFL, but I don't think it was a lack of running. I don't think there's anything about Stephens's game when he's up and about that suggests "defender" to me.

[stevoswan]

From Barrett's "Sliding Doors" this week.....and he's spot on (for a change):

"IF ...

the Swans have won just three matches in 2023 ...

THEN ...

it should be five. Inexplicably lost games it had done more than enough to win against GWS in round seven and Port Adelaide in round four. And pushed hard against Collingwood for three quarters last weekend. Going better than the ladder suggests, but are smashed with injury and have damningly lost their aura in the midfield."

We desperately need to get that aura back.

Sliding Doors

[stevoswan]

Caleb Serong ? Tom Green ?

I too wanted Serong (and he was a Swans fan) but with Green, I think GWS had a pick before us and he wasn't available when our first pick came.

[Blood Fever]

I am not entirely sure what you're arguing here. Sheezel is gaining his 30 touches a game playing across half-back. It's one of the easiest positions to pick up lots of touches if you don't have many pure defensive responsibilities (as is the case with Sheezel relative to Campbell, who last weekend did a pretty good job blanketing McCreery) and the ball is in your section of the ground a lot (as it is for North's defense). I'm not trying to put down Sheezel here - he looks a fine player and doesn't just play loose - but he doesn't provide a good argument for how young players can dominate in the midfield. They can. But he doesn't.

It's also not true that Campbell was the best rate mid from his draft class. He was more of a half-forward than an onballer in all the U18 level games I watched. He was low a possession, high impact kind of player, not a classic in-the-guts midfielder.

I do think that Campbell will eventually provide better value elsewhere on the ground, but that doesn't mean that his stint in defence won't help to develop his game. It already has. We can see it.

Stephen's most outstanding asset is his ability to run length of the ground, at pace, time after time after time. I think he's actually been continuing to do that this season. I attended a briefing from one of the assistant coaches two weekends ago, and he pointed out that the wingmen (and the half-forwards like Hayward) are not measured on how many possessions they get, and are not expected to get more than a dozen or so in most games. Clearly he's done something to earn the wrath of the coaching team to find himself in the VFL, but I don't think it was a lack of running. I don't think there's anything about Stephens's game when he's up and about that suggests "defender" to me.

Stephens was probably dropped because he is up and down in terms of his intensity when tackling and applying physical pressure. Not overly strong but could do better. McInerney can be up and down in these areas as well. Both great two way runners although Justin mostly plays back these days.

[waswan]

I too wanted Serong (and he was a Swans fan) but with Green, I think GWS had a pick before us and he wasn't available when our first pick came.

Was more talking about how they have been thrown into the deep end and have flourished not that we missed out on them.

Didnt see Caleb doing 3yrs off the back pocket

[waswan]

I am not entirely sure what you're arguing here. Sheezel is gaining his 30 touches a game playing across half-back. It's one of the easiest positions to pick up lots of touches if you don't have many pure defensive responsibilities (as is the case with Sheezel relative to Campbell, who last weekend did a pretty good job blanketing McCreery) and the ball is in your section of the ground a lot (as it is for North's defense). I'm not trying to put down Sheezel here - he looks a fine player and doesn't just play loose - but he doesn't provide a good argument for how young players can dominate in the midfield. They can. But he doesn't.

It's also not true that Campbell was the best rate mid from his draft class. He was more of a half-forward than an onballer in all the U18 level games I watched. He was low a possession, high impact kind of player, not a classic in-the-guts midfielder.

I do think that Campbell will eventually provide better value elsewhere on the ground, but that doesn't mean that his stint in defence won't help to develop his game. It already has. We can see it.

Stephen's most outstanding asset is his ability to run length of the ground, at pace, time after time after time. I think he's actually been continuing to do that this season. I attended a briefing from one of the assistant coaches two weekends ago, and he pointed out that the wingmen (and the half-forwards like Hayward) are not measured on how many possessions they get, and are not expected to get more than a dozen or so in most games. Clearly he's done something to earn the wrath of the coaching team to find himself in the VFL, but I don't think it was a lack of running. I don't think there's anything about Stephens's game when he's up and about that suggests "defender" to me.

Fair call with Sheezel, i obviously dont watch them close enough, just see a kid hit the ground running and wonder why some of ours take so long


Would like to see Stephens played without the leash on, see what he is really made of.

I like most would hate to lose him not necessarily because of what he brings atm but more due to thinking about what he could be elsewhere

[Maltopia]

I too wanted Serong (and he was a Swans fan) but with Green, I think GWS had a pick before us and he wasn't available when our first pick came.

No Green was available at 5.

I looked this up a week or two ago when lamenting our first round picks that were not Academy players, and why we didn’t trade up (maybe they tried) to grab Luke Jackson. I did say too though we dodged a bullet by not taking the tall Fischer McAsey at 5 who has been a worse version of Stephens over at Adelaide. I am referring to the supporters’ lamenting of a top 5/6 pick who is sucking in the seconds and not getting senior games, not that they have similar playing position etc.

GWS picked him up Green 5 picks after Stephens’ selection which means they were likely, though not guaranteed to match our earlier bid which never came.

They did have an earlier pick but they chose Lachie Ash with pick 4.

Surprised we didn’t give it a try anyway as he would be a likely JPK replacement in coming years given.

[liz]

Would like to see Stephens played without the leash on, see what he is really made of.

Off the leash but in defence? Now I am confused. Longmire's teams don't really play an unaccountable small rebounding defender in the way some other teams do (Daicos at times, though he's wandering further and wider now; Saad most certainly, as an example). So if he were in defence he'd be as accountable as he is now, probably more so, certainly in more technical ways (eg close checking a dangerous, slippery smallish forward).

I don't know where to find the relevant stats, but I also reckon playing in defence would use his superior running power to a less extent than does the wing role. Sure, the likes of Florent and Blakey make the occasional run forward but they are predominantly stationed down back. They don't do the continuous running up and down the ground of a wingman.

[Ludwig]

No Green was available at 5.

I looked this up a week or two ago when lamenting our first round picks that were not Academy players, and why we didn’t trade up (maybe they tried) to grab Luke Jackson. I did say too though we dodged a bullet by not taking the tall Fischer McAsey at 5 who has been a worse version of Stephens over at Adelaide. I am referring to the supporters’ lamenting of a top 5/6 pick who is sucking in the seconds and not getting senior games, not that they have similar playing position etc.

GWS picked him up Green 5 picks after Stephens’ selection which means they were likely, though not guaranteed to match our earlier bid which never came.

They did have an earlier pick but they chose Lachie Ash with pick 4.

Surprised we didn’t give it a try anyway as he would be a likely JPK replacement in coming years given.

Melbourne gave up so much to move into pick 3 to get Jackson that there was no way we could compete. He ended up leaving the club anyway, so you have to question how well researched that selection was.

GWS would have matched any bid on Tom Green, so that's another non-issue.

I'm not a big Stephens fan, mainly because I'm disappointed with his progress. But I can see why we selected him. He's got a great player profile, but he doesn't seem able to put it al together at AFL level. He has also gone through extended periods of poor disposal execution at both VFL and AFL level. I think it's difficult to assess those issues when drafting an 18 yo.

[waswan]

Off the leash but in defence? Now I am confused. Longmire's teams don't really play an unaccountable small rebounding defender in the way some other teams do (Daicos at times, though he's wandering further and wider now; Saad most certainly, as an example). So if he were in defence he'd be as accountable as he is now, probably more so, certainly in more technical ways (eg close checking a dangerous, slippery smallish forward).

I don't know where to find the relevant stats, but I also reckon playing in defence would use his superior running power to a less extent than does the wing role. Sure, the likes of Florent and Blakey make the occasional run forward but they are predominantly stationed down back. They don't do the continuous running up and down the ground of a wingman.

Stop Ollie and Blakey and you stop the Swans, Our best runners and line breakers are deep in our defence.

Off the leash on the wing, if he is staying there, let the kid play on,break a line and not just be a relief outlet that kicks long down the line after holding up the play

[Ludwig]

Off the leash on the wing, if he is staying there, let the kid play on,break a line and not just be a relief outlet that kicks long down the line after holding up the play

Stephens often gets trapped with the ball on the wing. The good wingmen find ways to move the ball on and retain possession. It's not easy to do, because the opposition is pressing up and trapping the player against the boundary line. Stephens will have to figure this out if he's going to succeed on the wing.

[i'm-uninformed2]

Stephens often gets trapped with the ball on the wing. The good wingmen find ways to move the ball on and retain possession. It's not easy to do, because the opposition is pressing up and trapping the player against the boundary line. Stephens will have to figure this out if he's going to succeed on the wing.

This is a good observation, but the weird part about Stephens is he has the skills and occasionally deploys them. The fake to go inside, the shimmy, and then the short burst to get himself out of a tight spot. It suggests a lack of confidence that he doesn’t use his speed and agility more often. I’d also suggest this year, he’s been let down by our lack of overlap run when he can give off the quick handball when truly cornered.

[i'm-uninformed2]

I am not entirely sure what you're arguing here. Sheezel is gaining his 30 touches a game playing across half-back. It's one of the easiest positions to pick up lots of touches if you don't have many pure defensive responsibilities (as is the case with Sheezel relative to Campbell, who last weekend did a pretty good job blanketing McCreery) and the ball is in your section of the ground a lot (as it is for North's defense). I'm not trying to put down Sheezel here - he looks a fine player and doesn't just play loose - but he doesn't provide a good argument for how young players can dominate in the midfield. They can. But he doesn't.

It's also not true that Campbell was the best rate mid from his draft class. He was more of a half-forward than an onballer in all the U18 level games I watched. He was low a possession, high impact kind of player, not a classic in-the-guts midfielder.

I do think that Campbell will eventually provide better value elsewhere on the ground, but that doesn't mean that his stint in defence won't help to develop his game. It already has. We can see it.

Stephen's most outstanding asset is his ability to run length of the ground, at pace, time after time after time. I think he's actually been continuing to do that this season. I attended a briefing from one of the assistant coaches two weekends ago, and he pointed out that the wingmen (and the half-forwards like Hayward) are not measured on how many possessions they get, and are not expected to get more than a dozen or so in most games. Clearly he's done something to earn the wrath of the coaching team to find himself in the VFL, but I don't think it was a lack of running. I don't think there's anything about Stephens's game when he's up and about that suggests "defender" to me.

These are good observations on Campbell, particularly his draft years. He will migrate to the midfield, but he lacked the AFL midfield required tank the first two years in the system. That’s not unusual. The running power to play in there is exceptional, and the number of first or second year players who have it is rare. Even Errol, who’s an extraordinary runner, had injuries in his first year from overload. I also think Campbell’s time in defence is teaching him good habits and the ability to win contested situations. His improvement this year has been vast, and I reckon when he pops, he will really pop to a high level.

[stevoswan]

Was more talking about how they have been thrown into the deep end and have flourished not that we missed out on them.

Didnt see Caleb doing 3yrs off the back pocket

Ahh, got it.