Round 18: the other games. You just keep me hanging on.

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  • Sandridge
    Outer wing, Lake Oval
    • Apr 2010
    • 2083

    #46
    Originally posted by Captain
    Pure free kick counts are meaningless.

    In 2016 we were totally screwed - actual errors from the umpires and at crucial times that changed the momentum of the entire match on multiple occasions. Cost us the game.

    In 2012, the umpiring was pretty good. Yes the Hawks won more free kicks but that doesn't mean they were wrong. It was a cracking game and if we lost, it wouldn't have been the umpires fault.
    You start off by saying free kick counts are meaningless and then give an example of when they weren't.

    In 2012, we might not have been totally screwed over like we were in 2016 but we didn't get any favours, either.
    Last edited by Sandridge; 17 July 2023, 05:06 PM.

    Comment

    • Mel_C
      Veterans List
      • Jan 2003
      • 4470

      #47
      Originally posted by mcs
      This is a pretty serious achievement. Never had too many complaints about his umpiring - just gets on with it. Unlike some others in the game, where they think it is all about them, or they are just just very poor umpires.
      I used to think he was pretty fair, but in 2021 when we played the Bulldogs at Marvel, he had an absolute shocker. He continuously paid dodgy frees to the Bulldogs. I was so angry and I remember booing him and so did those sitting around me.

      Comment

      • Captain
        Captain of the Side
        • Feb 2004
        • 3602

        #48
        Originally posted by Sandridge
        You start off by saying free kick counts are meaningless and then give an example of when they weren't.

        In 2012, we might not have been totally screwed over like we were in 2016 but we didn't get any favours, either.
        Not sure how you came to that conclusion?

        If a free kick is there the umpire needs to pay it. Sometimes that means one team gets more than the other. I have no issue with that if they are correct decisions. 2012 GF good example. Free kick count our fault, not the umps.

        The issue is the incorrect decisions and at crucial times. I have a way bigger issue with this. ie 2016 GF. Closest thing to cheating I have seen.

        - - - Updated - - -

        Originally posted by Blood Fever
        Get your point but one stage in 2016 it was 20-4 Bulldogs way. Definition of meaningful. That also doesn't count all the throws they got away with on that day. The latter is still happening.
        20-4 isn’t an issue if they were correct decisions. The issue was some of them were shockers and a lot to us were missed.

        Comment

        • Industrial Fan
          Goodesgoodesgoodesgoodes!
          • Aug 2006
          • 3318

          #49
          How about the doob against Ted Richards in 2012?

          As bad as any calls in 2016…
          He ate more cheese, than time allowed

          Comment

          • mcs
            Travelling Swannie!!
            • Jul 2007
            • 8168

            #50
            I think in 2012 there were some bog average calls - but we got a couple of lucky ones too. Stevic did his best 'I'd love to be your No 1 season ticket holder one day' impression for the Hawks, but didn't feel like the odds were stacked like 2016.

            2016 was something else. In a hard, contested match like that - I will remain absolutely blown away by the fact that one team was so perfect they didn't give away a single free kick for more than a half of football. As Captain said there were a lot of shockers in that game - but we all know the desperation to get the Dogs over the line. Only had to look at the way the Giants got absolutely shafted in the prelim final late to see nothing was getting in the way of the AFL House sanctioned and formulated fairytale.

            The final margin is often claimed to reflect a clam that the 'umpiring didn't matter' in 2016. But it blew out very late, and the game was in the balance until the last couple of minutes. With umpiring that more reasonably reflected the contest, and with the utter shockers actually correct (let alone the american football gridiron passes and dummy half passes practiced by the dogs), we might have seen a different result that day.

            I won't be happy until we beat the Dogs in a big final (preferably a grand final) and they get as royally bent over by the umpires as we did.
            "You get the feeling that like Monty Python's Black Knight, the Swans would regard amputation as merely a flesh wound."

            Comment

            • Captain
              Captain of the Side
              • Feb 2004
              • 3602

              #51
              If I recall, the Dogs got a dream umpiring run in all 4 of their 2016 finals, including one against the Hawks.

              Comment

              • Sandridge
                Outer wing, Lake Oval
                • Apr 2010
                • 2083

                #52
                Originally posted by Captain
                If I recall, the Dogs got a dream umpiring run in all 4 of their 2016 finals, including one against the Hawks.
                While I'm not sure I agree with your belief that the 2012 GF umpiring was ok, your points about 2016 are something we agree wholeheartedly on!

                The 2016 GF affected me so much I spent a lot of time studying the stats.

                In 2016, the Bulldogs played 26 games. They won the free kick count 20 times, drew it twice, lost only 4 times.

                They won the free kick count in all 4 finals they played that year and, the further they advanced, the more they won the free kick count by. They shouldn't have even been playing us in the GF - the umpires got them over the line in the Preliminary Final against GWS.

                Comment

                • Mel_C
                  Veterans List
                  • Jan 2003
                  • 4470

                  #53
                  The AFL is discussing with clubs the introduction of a Wild Card weekend before the finals. The teams in 7th and 8th play the teams in 9th and 10th to determine who makes the final 2 spots.

                  I'm not in favour of this at all. We play 23 rounds to qualify for the top 8. If we don't make it then too bad.

                  Apparently it's based on what happens in the NBA. Why do we have to follow what the US does??

                  Comment

                  • stevoswan
                    Veterans List
                    • Sep 2014
                    • 8560

                    #54
                    Originally posted by Sandridge
                    You start off by saying free kick counts are meaningless and then give an example of when they weren't.

                    In 2012, we might not have been totally screwed over like we were in 2016 but we didn't get any favours, either.
                    +1

                    - - - Updated - - -

                    Originally posted by Captain
                    Not sure how you came to that conclusion?

                    If a free kick is there the umpire needs to pay it. Sometimes that means one team gets more than the other. I have no issue with that if they are correct decisions. 2012 GF good example. Free kick count our fault, not the umps.

                    The issue is the incorrect decisions and at crucial times. I have a way bigger issue with this. ie 2016 GF. Closest thing to cheating I have seen.

                    20-4 isn’t an issue if they were correct decisions. The issue was some of them were shockers and a lot to us were missed.


                    Perhaps you should have said 'sometimes pure free kick counts are meaningless, sometimes they perfectly reflect umpiring bias'.

                    BTW, I agree with your umpiring hypothesis.
                    Last edited by stevoswan; 18 July 2023, 07:37 PM.

                    Comment

                    • Maltopia
                      Senior Player
                      • Apr 2016
                      • 1556

                      #55
                      Originally posted by Mel_C
                      The AFL is discussing with clubs the introduction of a Wild Card weekend before the finals. The teams in 7th and 8th play the teams in 9th and 10th to determine who makes the final 2 spots.

                      I'm not in favour of this at all. We play 23 rounds to qualify for the top 8. If we don't make it then too bad.

                      Apparently it's based on what happens in the NBA. Why do we have to follow what the US does??
                      They are trying to give fans of two more clubs (those finishing 9th and 10th) an extra week of hope/interest in the finals.

                      Plus more revenue from two extra games.

                      The top six would get a week off as a reward for their finishing position.

                      Seventh to tenth would have to win five in a row to be the premier…

                      I am neutral on the idea, though if it existed this year, we would have a greater chance of making the finals as we only have to make tenth spot then win the wildcard game to be in the finals.

                      Comment

                      • stevoswan
                        Veterans List
                        • Sep 2014
                        • 8560

                        #56
                        Originally posted by Mel_C
                        The AFL is discussing with clubs the introduction of a Wild Card weekend before the finals. The teams in 7th and 8th play the teams in 9th and 10th to determine who makes the final 2 spots.

                        I'm not in favour of this at all. We play 23 rounds to qualify for the top 8. If we don't make it then too bad.

                        Apparently it's based on what happens in the NBA. Why do we have to follow what the US does??
                        Agree....what an absolutely stupid idea.

                        Comment

                        • liz
                          Veteran
                          Site Admin
                          • Jan 2003
                          • 16778

                          #57
                          Originally posted by Maltopia
                          They are trying to give fans of two more clubs (those finishing 9th and 10th) an extra week of hope/interest in the finals.

                          Plus more revenue from two extra games.

                          The top six would get a week off as a reward for their finishing position.

                          Seventh to tenth would have to win five in a row to be the premier…

                          I am neutral on the idea, though if it existed this year, we would have a greater chance of making the finals as we only have to make tenth spot then win the wildcard game to be in the finals.
                          Calling it "wildcard round" seems to be an Americanisation. Just reframe it as an extension of the finals system and it makes more sense, particularly as we move towards 19 and then probably 20 teams in the competition. Just means the finals are a top 10, not a top 8.

                          Comment

                          • stevoswan
                            Veterans List
                            • Sep 2014
                            • 8560

                            #58
                            Originally posted by Captain
                            If I recall, the Dogs got a dream umpiring run in all 4 of their 2016 finals, including one against the Hawks.
                            Yes, they absolutely did.....but the two Sydney based teams got the biggest shaftings of all.
                            Last edited by stevoswan; 18 July 2023, 07:38 PM.

                            Comment

                            • Sandridge
                              Outer wing, Lake Oval
                              • Apr 2010
                              • 2083

                              #59
                              Originally posted by stevoswan
                              Yes, they absolutely did.....but the two Sydney based teams got the biggest shaftings of all.
                              Absolutely! It should have been us against GWS in the GF. Both Sydney teams were totally screwed over by the umps as the Bulldogs were gifted a premiership.

                              Comment

                              • MattW
                                Veterans List
                                • May 2011
                                • 4220

                                #60
                                Originally posted by Maltopia
                                They are trying to give fans of two more clubs (those finishing 9th and 10th) an extra week of hope/interest in the finals.

                                Plus more revenue from two extra games.

                                The top six would get a week off as a reward for their finishing position.

                                Seventh to tenth would have to win five in a row to be the premier…

                                I am neutral on the idea, though if it existed this year, we would have a greater chance of making the finals as we only have to make tenth spot then win the wildcard game to be in the finals.
                                I quite like it as a means to:
                                - dispense with the ridiculous pre-finals bye;
                                - advantage higher ranked teams; and
                                - sustain interest in the competition for more teams/supporters.

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