2023 Brownlow thread

[KSAS]

Lots of controversy in the media how the umpires voted in some games where players didn't receive votes for being BOG and vice versa, which was crucial in such a tight finish. Lachie Neale was genuinely surprised to have won.

This is the not unusual in the history of the Brownlow, as I recall Keith Greig (73-74) didn't even win his club's B&F with his Browlnlows. Dipper tying with Greg Williams, Tony Liberatore, the list goes on. Media can be too hung up on stats, as I expect of lots angry callers on talkback today!

However I do agree a high percentage of votes are now concentrated on too few players, as so many polling in the high 20's which is insane compared to yesteryear. Defenders have no chance as stats based poling goes heavily against them. Forwards to have kick bags, even then some like Jeremy & Charlie Cameron were overlooked!

I had feeling Gulden will finish in the pointy end and was one of several possible winners had the counting gone their way.

‘These votes are insane’: Demand for change after Brownlow ‘travesty’ | news.com.au — Australia’s leading news site

[KTigers]

Maybe it should be called the Midfielder Award. Last time I looked you had to kick a bunch of goals to win games, and there are 15 or
so guys that scored between 40 and 60 goals and barely got a vote. Do Collingwood make the GF without Brody Mihocek (5 votes) and
his 44 goals? Do GWS make the Prelim without Jesse Hogan (3 votes) and his 42 goals. Even us, do we make the finals without
Paps' (4 votes) 37 goals? Nope, nope and nope.
I get the Brownlow rewards individual performances in individual games, but it doesn't reward the contributions to winning games
properly. And winning, it's kind of a big deal in sport.

[lwjoyner]

cant understand votes in final game. although we lost (probably the reason which itshould not be).with 42 osessions gets 1, fisch 2 and viney 3 . surely it should have been the other way round. would not have won anyway.

[Nico]

I think Fritsch got a few goals in the last quarter so was fresh in the minds of the umps. Viney had 12 tackles so he was front and centre to the umps, but then again Errol had 42 possessions and 2 cracking goals on the run. FYI the umps were Chamberlain, Meredith, Williamson and Gianfagna. All but Ray have officiated in the finals this year, with a couple probably getting the granny.

[KTigers]

cant understand votes in final game. although we lost (probably the reason which itshould not be).with 42 osessions gets 1, fisch 2 and viney 3 . surely it should have been the other way round. would not have won anyway.

And Neale got 3 votes for a 7 kick, 13 handball game. Horne-Francis got 3 votes for a 13 touch game that included 4
ineffectual disposals, 2 clangers, a kick along the ground and another kick that went one metre. I reckon I could have
done that.

[i'm-uninformed2]

Maybe it should be called the Midfielder Award. Last time I looked you had to kick a bunch of goals to win games, and there are 15 or
so guys that scored between 40 and 60 goals and barely got a vote. Do Collingwood make the GF without Brody Mihocek (5 votes) and
his 44 goals? Do GWS make the Prelim without Jesse Hogan (3 votes) and his 42 goals. Even us, do we make the finals without
Paps' (4 votes) 37 goals? Nope, nope and nope.
I get the Brownlow rewards individual performances in individual games, but it doesn't reward the contributions to winning games
properly. And winning, it's kind of a big deal in sport.

I don't blame the umpires, as they don't ask for the responsibility and have enough on their hands. Plus, because they are watching the play so intently they naturally follow the ball - and therefore midfielders.

But you're dead right. It's why the AFL Coaches Award is the premier award in my mind these days. It may have a bit of a midfield bias too - but you certainly don't get the outlier results you get in the Brownlow in individual games, and I reckon I know who knows more about footy.

[KTigers]

I think they need a stat called "Goal Involvements". So if you either kick a goal or are within three possessions of unbroken play
that results in a goal by a team mate then that is a Goal Involvement. And at the other end of the ground if you break up a
sequence of possessions by the opposition in their half with a tackle or an intercept mark (marking an errant kick by the opposition
doesn't count) then that is a Goal Involvement too. So, players efforts at either end of ground are rewarded with this stat, a stat
that directly influences the score, by scoring and helping score goals and stopping goals as well.
It would favour midfielders because they are more likely to be at both ends of the ground but it would be a meaningful
stat as it relates to scoring and defense at the same time.

[liz]

I think they need a stat called "Goal Involvements". So if you either kick a goal or are within three possessions of unbroken play
that results in a goal by a team mate then that is a Goal Involvement. And at the other end of the ground if you break up a
sequence of possessions by the opposition in their half with a tackle or an intercept mark (marking an errant kick by the opposition
doesn't count) then that is a Goal Involvement too. So, players efforts at either end of ground are rewarded with this stat, a stat
that directly influences the score, by scoring and helping score goals and stopping goals as well.
It would favour midfielders because they are more likely to be at both ends of the ground but it would be a meaningful
stat as it relates to scoring and defense at the same time.

Those stats (or very similar ones) are already recorded. Scoring involvements and intercepts.

[KTigers]

Those stats (or very similar ones) are already recorded. Scoring involvements and intercepts.

But not precisely as I described, and they aren't added together as one stat that can be attributed to one player.

[liz]

But not precisely as I described, and they aren't added together as one stat that can be attributed to one player.

Not precisely as you described, but I'm not sure yours are any more telling than the ones that are recorded.

In terms of being added together as one stat, most stats aren't added together. There isn't a single stat that combines disposals, marks, tackles, clearances etc. Although there are Dreamtime and Supercoach scores, and Champion Data ratings, that attempt to come up with a single measure for a player's game. Though those are (sometimes) derided for the relative weightings they do or don't place on each individual statistic. Any combined measure requires an large element of judgement of which acts are more worthy of recognition.

[ugg]

It's not just the Brownlow that has beome the midfielder's award, the AFLCA award is similar - 16 of the top 20 this year were midfielders.

[liz]

It's not just the Brownlow that has beome the midfielder's award, the AFLCA award is similar - 16 of the top 20 this year were midfielders.

Precisely. People complaining about the Brownlow has joined death and taxes as being one of life's certainties. While there's no doubt that votes are becoming more concentrated amongst fewer players, it's been a midfielders' award for almost ever. Always ever if you include ruckmen as midfielders.

And both the AFLCA and the Brownlow not only predominantly recognised midfielders. They recognised the same ones. Butters, Bontempelli, Daicos, Neale, Gulden, Petracca - top six in the Brownlow, top six in the AFLCA.

[KTigers]

I'm just talking about adding together two things that are related to scoring and stopping the opposition from scoring.

With the Brownlow as I'm-Uninformed2 says, the umpires probably have enough on their plate. But the AFL is unlikely
to take the voting off them. They'll be citing tradition and all that, even though with four umps now it's become voting
by committee. Like I said before, 12 guys got more votes this year than Paul Kelly did when he won it in 1995.
That's just plain silly.

[rojo]

Despite all the angst it is interesting to note that the same 6 players who gained the top votes for the Brownlow Medal are the same 6 who were top of the Coaches Association Medal votes, just in different order. Butters was the big difference and the only one who should be a bit miffed, he and Neale swapped positions.

[stevoswan]

1 vote for Errol’s performance in the last round needs a royal inquiry. And to give Viney the 3 votes is puzzling

Yes, 1 vote for 42 possessions and 2 goals is interesting indeed.....but had he got three votes for this game he still wouldn't have beaten Neale.

Having said that, Neale getting three votes for 7 kick game against the Giants (?) is also royally puzzling.

- - - Updated - - -

Fantastic result for Gulden.

Stephens finishing equal 7th too!

Stop it!