There will be a Sydney Swans AFLW team in the 2022-23 season

[Maltopia]

+1 Well said. More important things to whinge about than the use of “boys” & “girls”.

It is totally for the women to decide if the use of girls is appropriate or not, regardless of how the men’s team is described.

[Faunac8]

I openly profess to not being qualified to judge as to what may cause offence to others and I understand that what offends others might not offend me but I am curious as to why some team theme songs reference girls if it is seen by some as patronising ?
I also seem to recall an advert where the female footy team sing the such and such girls after a victory.
Surely if the use of the term girls causes concern to a significant sector of the population then that would be a good place to start.

[Maltopia]

I openly profess to not being qualified to judge as to what may cause offence to others and I understand that what offends others might not offend me but I am curious as to why some team theme songs reference girls if it is seen by some as patronising ?
I also seem to recall an advert where the female footy team sing the such and such girls after a victory.
Surely if the use of the term girls causes concern to a significant sector of the population then that would be a good place to start.

Times change and some take longer to move with the times than others. Not every woman is going to be put off by the use of the term girls. But if some do, we ought to acknowledge that this their experience.

If you disagree with it, you are free to do so, but telling the women to suck it up or that they are being precious or too sensitive is more (possibly ignorant) sexism.

Re times changing…

At my kids’s school, one of the houses is called the MacKillip Monkeys. Innocent naming a couple of decades ago, but would be considered racist nowadays and unwelcoming for any kids from South Africa, India etc as there is understanding now that monkey is used as a racist insult for some groups. Remember how upsetting it was for Goodes for Eddie MaGuire to suggest he play King Kong in a promotion? Or how Eddie Betts felt when people threw bananas at him? Some thought it was funny as he was a master of the banana kick, but to him it was ignorant racism.

The Washington Redskins - the management has acknowledged in recent years the naming, the caricature of an American Indian Chief and their tomahawk celebrations are insulting to American Indians. However for decades fans were doing the tomahawk motion and many argue that it is PC gone too far etc.

The key thing is, if you or I are not in the group that has been marginalised for decades/centuries, the best thing we can do is listen when someone from that group talks about their experience, instead of minimising what they are saying.

Ask open questions if you want to learn about their perspective, but not prejudiced questions like “aren’t you being too sensitive given the men’s team are often labelled the boys?”

Instead, “what does it mean for you when the women’s team is labelled as the girls by a male player?”

Disclosure - I have a social work background and have experience with people with disability, identify as LGBTIQA+, with mental health issues etc.

[Faunac8]

Times change and some take longer to move with the times than others. Not every woman is going to be put off by the use of the term girls. But if some do, we ought to acknowledge that this their experience.

If you disagree with it, you are free to do so, but telling the women to suck it up or that they are being precious or too sensitive is more (possibly ignorant) sexism.

Re times changing…

At my kids’s school, one of the houses is called the MacKillip Monkeys. Innocent naming a couple of decades ago, but would be considered racist nowadays and unwelcoming for any kids from South Africa, India etc as there is understanding now that monkey is used as a racist insult for some groups. Remember how upsetting it was for Goodes for Eddie MaGuire to suggest he play King Kong in a promotion? Or how Eddie Betts felt when people threw bananas at him? Some thought it was funny as he was a master of the banana kick, but to him it was ignorant racism.

The Washington Redskins - the management has acknowledged in recent years the naming, the caricature of an American Indian Chief and their tomahawk celebrations are insulting to American Indians. However for decades fans were doing the tomahawk motion and many argue that it is PC gone too far etc.

The key thing is, if you or I are not in the group that has been marginalised for decades/centuries, the best thing we can do is listen when someone from that group talks about their experience, instead of minimising what they are saying.

Ask open questions if you want to learn about their perspective, but not prejudiced questions like “aren’t you being too sensitive given the men’s team are often labelled the boys?”

Instead, “what does it mean for you when the women’s team is labelled as the girls by a male player?”

Disclosure - I have a social work background and have experience with people with disability, identify as LGBTIQA+, with mental health issues etc.

I simply asked the question if removing the reference to girls from within the actual organisation itself might be a good starting point.
If you felt I was suggesting that they should just suck it up then I probably need to revisit and edit my post that you responded to in such detail as that was 360 degrees away from the intent of my post.

[Maltopia]

I simply asked the question if removing the reference to girls from within the actual organisation itself might be a good starting point.
If you felt I was suggesting that they should just suck it up then I probably need to revisit and edit my post that you responded to in such detail as that was 360 degrees away from the intent of my post.

Hey Faunac8, the reply was to all/others. The “you” was not YOU. Sorry I didn’t use the “one” pronoun to make it clear I wasn’t saying YOU were suggesting a suck it up approach.

[Faunac8]

Hey Faunac8, the reply was to all/others. The “you” was not YOU. Sorry I didn’t use the “one” pronoun to make it clear I wasn’t saying YOU were suggesting a suck it up approach.

All good I thought maybe I had not been clear where my thoughts lay.

[stevoswan]

It is totally for the women to decide if the use of girls is appropriate or not, regardless of how the men’s team is described.

....and I'm sure most of them don't give a rats. They're playing in a team where they'll all have each others back and if someone calls them a girl in a positive fashion, I'm sure they'll be fine. You know at our club it won't be said in a way that has negative connotations. Unless we have Liz Cambage in our squad! There is basically nothing 'to suck up' in the first place.

However, if the womens team actually come out and say "we don't want to be referred to as girls", I would respect that.....but I'm not sure this issue is even on their radar. Time will tell I guess but as none of us know what they're actually thinking, I reckon we should maybe just let them speak for themselves, eh? If it's an actual issue, they'll probably let us know. In the meantime, let's just talk about their footy.

[Faunac8]

w

....and I'm sure most of them don't give a rats. They're playing in a team where they'll all have each others back and if someone calls them a girl in a positive fashion, I'm sure they'll be fine. You know at our club it won't be said in a way that has negative connotations. Unless we have Liz Cambage in our squad! There is basically nothing 'to suck up' in the first place.

However, if the womens team actually come out and say "we don't want to be referred to as girls", I would respect that.....but I'm not sure this issue is even on their radar. Time will tell I guess but as none of us know what they're actually thinking, I reckon we should maybe just let them speak for themselves, eh? If it's an actual issue, they'll probably let us know. In the meantime, let's just talk about their footy.

Why are you so sure they don’t give a rats have you asked them? has a survey been conducted ? Have players been interviewed by media ? Are they on social media saying the use of the pronoun girls is not offensive and it’s all part of footy etc ?
I don’t want to be confrontational but this comment is so close to a mansplain it’s borderline offensive to the players involved.

[Maltopia]

w

Why are you so sure they don’t give a rats have you asked them? has a survey been conducted ? Have players been interviewed by media ? Are they on social media saying the use of the pronoun girls is not offensive and it’s all part of footy etc ?
I don’t want to be confrontational but this comment is so close to a mansplain it’s borderline offensive to the players involved.

+1

And marginalised people often don’t speak out. The mainstream expect them to be happy for their opportunity. Smile and be happy, just play football etc.

Even a champion and beloved player like Eddie Betts has said that he was afraid to speak out about racism during his career. Look at what happened to Goodes.

[stevoswan]

w

Why are you so sure they don’t give a rats have you asked them? has a survey been conducted ? Have players been interviewed by media ? Are they on social media saying the use of the pronoun girls is not offensive and it’s all part of footy etc ?
I don’t want to be confrontational but this comment is so close to a mansplain it’s borderline offensive to the players involved.

+1

And marginalised people often don’t speak out. The mainstream expect them to be happy for their opportunity. Smile and be happy, just play football etc.

Even a champion and beloved player like Eddie Betts has said that he was afraid to speak out about racism during his career. Look at what happened to Goodes.

OK, you both seem to both know 'much more than me'.....so I'll just leave the pontificating on things that both you and I know nothing about to you two then. You seem to think you know how all women feel. Is this subject even as important as stamping out racism? Seriously?

Maybe you could do that survey....lest the ladies are too afraid to speak out. Just by implying that concept, you are effectively saying our club is NOT a supportive environment. Are you?

Also, how is saying we should just let the ladies speak for themselves 'mansplaining'? Isn't you speaking for them just that?

Sheese!

[Maltopia]

OK, you both seem to both know 'much more than me'.....so I'll just leave the pontificating on things I know nothing about to you two then. You seem to think you know how all women feel. Is this subject even as important as stamping out racism? Seriously?

Maybe you could do that survey....lest the ladies are too afraid to speak out. Just by implying that concept, you are effectively saying our club is NOT a supportive environment. Are you?

Sheese!

I said we should ask the women. I didn’t say how all women feel, you almost did by declaring that most of them don’t give a rat’s.

Also it is not a war between racism or sexism etc.

To anyone who is treated with bias, it is critically important to them.

[stevoswan]

I said we should ask the women. I didn’t say how all women feel, you almost did by declaring that most of them don’t give a rat’s.

Also it is not a war between racism or sexism etc.

To anyone who is treated with bias, it is critically important to them.

.....and it's their fight to fight....no one else's. We should support them by all means.....but not speak for them or think we know what they're thinking. We are all guilty of that here. It is just my guess that they don't give a rats.....and just your guess that they actually do.

Just a little end note....it is my opinion that stamping out racism is far more important than this 'gender terminology' fight. Just sayin'....and I think Adam and Eddie would agree with me....and maybe the female players would too. Of course I can't be sure of that until I actually ask them.

Until then, it remains an 'opinion'. You are welcome to disagree with that opinion......and I'm sure you'll try to find a way to do just that.

[Faunac8]

.....and it's their fight to fight....no one else's. We should support them by all means.....but not speak for them or think we know what they're thinking. We are all guilty of that here. It is just my guess that they don't give a rats.....and just your guess that they actually do.

Just a little end note....it is my opinion that stamping out racism is far more important than this 'gender terminology' fight. Just sayin'....and I think Adam and Eddie would agree with me....and maybe the female players would too. Of course I can't be sure of that until I actually ask them.

Until then, it remains an 'opinion'. You are welcome to disagree with that opinion......and I'm sure you'll try to find a way to do just that.

Then maybe instead of repeatedly saying I’m sure try using I think or I feel
I also never said that I was speaking for anybody and how you interpreted my opinion as such is a mystery to me.
You do know that some posts on this actual subject thread saying they don’t appreciate that terminology have been made by what appear to be female supporters.
It sort of removes the guesswork that you imply is involved in my comments.
And I for one do not profess to “ know much more than you “ and never suggested I did.

[stevoswan]

Then maybe instead of repeatedly saying I’m sure try using I think or I feel
I also never said that I was speaking for anybody and how you interpreted my opinion as such is a mystery to me.
You do know that some posts on this actual subject thread saying they don’t appreciate that terminology have been made by what appear to be female supporters.
It sort of removes the guesswork that you imply is involved in my comments.
And I for one do not profess to “ know much more than you “ and never suggested I did.

I saw that.....so now same gender fans can speak for the players? Have they actually spoken to the female players?

All I am saying is that it's not for us to decide what these women players think and feel, it is up to them. Wouldn't you agree?

BTW, I am sure.....but as I said in an earlier post, I guess time will tell....just don't create and draw these players into a situation/dispute that may indeed not even exist.

[KTigers]

I would have thought that male members of mens sporting teams have been referring to their teammates as "boys",
and female members of womens sporting teams have referring to their teammates as "girls" since the dawn of time.
I don't think there is anything sinister or untoward about it. I think it's almost a term of affection between teammates.
And not meant to mean they think their teammates are children.
I suppose if the womens league is called the AFLW then maybe the mens league could become the AFLM.
It wouldn't bother me. But it's hard to see it happening anytime soon.