Things I'd like players to work on inb pre-season

[Bleed Red Blood]

What Barry Hall really needs to do is to lift his overhead marking I was very dissapointed with his efforts at this last season.

(off topic) Cant wait for season 2004 so many possibilites.

[liz]

Originally posted by gloveski
LRT - Disposal skills by foot and to move the ball on a bit quicker when he has taken a mark.

Definitely agree with the second part of that. Whenever he had to dispose quickly, and play on instinct, he invariably took the right option and did it well - eg his goal in the qualifying final, his first ever handball. But when he takes a mark and has time to go back and think about it he seems to struggle to spot an option or is indecisive in his disposal.

However, I'm sure it's nothing that more experience - and hence confidence - won't fix. The raw materials are certainly there, skillwise.

[chammond]

Originally posted by NMWBloods
Seriously disagree with that. First option in defence is to prevent your opponent marking, which frequently involves spoiling. All good defensive players, including Roos and Dunkley, know that. Of course there is the occasion when marking is the right option, but it is important to recognise the difference.

Not true.

Roos would always mark if he could, and would only spoil if he was caught out of position. Dunks punched more than Roos, but he still preferred to mark if he could.

That's why I would always enjoy watching real players like Roos and Dunkley before I'd see sorry spoilers like Silvagni or Kelly (Craig that is).

And why I'd hate to see anyone trying to force a class act like Saddington into wasting his talents by trying to negate rather than create.

All good defensive players know that attack is the best form of defence. As soon as start thinking about spoiling, you hand the initiative to your opponent. If you're thinking about that even before you go on the ground, then you might as well not bother.

[NMWBloods]

Originally posted by chammond
Not true.

Roos would always mark if he could, and would only spoil if he was caught out of position. Dunks punched more than Roos, but he still preferred to mark if he could.

But that is all about recognising position and opportunity. Both Roos and Dunkley did that very well, but if they didn't have it they punched. I think that is the first thing to focus on. Dunkley averaged only about 4 marks per game, so that is hardly someone who relied on marking as his preferred choice.

That's why I would always enjoy watching real players like Roos and Dunkley before I'd see sorry spoilers like Silvagni or Kelly (Craig that is).

I'm hardly suggesting he become like one of those players!! Still, if he could stop opposition forwards as effectively as Silvagni (even taking into account his lenient treatment by the umpires) we wouldn't be doing so badly.

And why I'd hate to see anyone trying to force a class act like Saddington into wasting his talents by trying to negate rather than create.

It's not about him simply being classy, it's about him recognising that first and foremost he is a defender and must prevent goals. That certainly doesn't stop him from marking and running out of the backline when necessary, but he can hardly do that if the opposition is kicking a goal.

All good defensive players know that attack is the best form of defence. As soon as start thinking about spoiling, you hand the initiative to your opponent. If you're thinking about that even before you go on the ground, then you might as well not bother.

Now that is rubbish. You are suggesting that the best defensive players aim to go for a mark rather than a spoil, and the latter is the sign of a negative player who may as well not even bother!!

Top defensive players like Fletcher, Langford, and Jakovich typically only took/take about 4 marks per game as they recognise(d) their defensive assignments and spoil(ed) when necessary.

It's hardly a mutually exclusive outcome to be able to play good defensive and attacking football. However, if you want to play a key defensive position, then you need to be able to play defensive football as well as attacking.

[Tooth Fairy]

Why all the bickering between you two? I'm starting to get sick of it. Why don't you just agree to disagree on everything each other says, and we'll leave it at that. The funny thing about this conversation, and many of your other conversations, is that I can see good points posted by both of you. The trouble is, you both spoil your points of view by claiming the other person wrong.

Let's have a Love In!

[Plugger46]

Originally posted by chammond
Bugger that . . . I want to see him go for the mark. I'm not interested in watching a quality footballer like Saddo muck around with spoiling and punching except as an absolute last resort.

A quality footballer? He definitely isn't that. Might be able to play a little bit, but people seriously overrate him.

[liz]

Originally posted by Tooth Fairy
Why all the bickering between you two?

One person's 'bickering' is another person's healthy discussion. Surely the whole point of a forum like this is to debate points of view. It's certainly more interesting than the constant "bagfest" of players that some like to engage in.

[stellation]

Originally posted by lizz
One person's 'bickering' is another person's healthy discussion. Surely the whole point of a forum like this is to debate points of view. It's certainly more interesting than the constant "bagfest" of players that some like to engage in.

you're just saying that because you're always bickering!

joking joking...

[Gunn]

Originally posted by Plugger46
A quality footballer? He definitely isn't that. Might be able to play a little bit, but people seriously overrate him.

I have to agree with you. He is a 'good ordinary footballer' as Jack Dyer would say. He overrated by many on his performances to date. If he could fill out quite a bit, take strong contested marks and was faster of foot and hand he would be a good footballer.

[chammond]

Oh, no. What a dilemma! So many people to disagree with, and so little time to spend on it.

It's not about him simply being classy, it's about him recognising that first and foremost he is a defender and must prevent goals.

And how does changing his game help that? Making him a second rate spoiler won't make him a better defender. Encoraging him to be the best marking, rebounding, long-kicking defender in the comp is a much better option.

You are suggesting that the best defensive players aim to go for a mark rather than a spoil, and the latter is the sign of a negative player who may as well not even bother!!

You've almost got it!

The best players in any position are those that make the absolute most of the skills they've got. The champions are the ones who don't listen to the cliches; they just focus on being better than everyone else.

Saddo isn't, and never will be, a clogger; trying to make him into a spoiling defender will just ruin a good player.

Top defensive players like Fletcher, Langford, and Jakovich typically only took/take about 4 marks per game as they recognise(d) their defensive assignments and spoil(ed) when necessary.

Yeah, but Fletcher et al didn't become top players by copying each other, nor do they approach their games in the same way . . . they play their own games and make the most of what their good at. And I'm absolutely certain that they don't see 'spoiling' as their number one target - the reason they're champions is because their overriding aim is to get the ball.

A quality footballer? He definitely isn't that. Might be able to play a little bit, but people seriously overrate him.

You're wrong. He's class.

Not sure who 'people' are, but all that counts is that the Swans rate him very highly.

Now . . . what else was there . . . ah yes . .

Why all the bickering between you two? I'm starting to get sick of it. Why don't you just agree to disagree on everything each other says, and we'll leave it at that.

Um, how best to phrase this?

I know . . .

Shove it up your arse!

[chammond]

Why all the bickering between you two? I'm starting to get sick of it. Why don't you just agree to disagree on everything each other says, and we'll leave it at that.

Sod it . . . that needs a better response.

The reason I argue with NMWBloods is because he (she? sorry I don't know for sure) expresses opinions that are well thought out and interesting.

It's pleasant to debate football with the dozen or so posters who actually know what they are talking about, and it's certainly a lot more creative than the half-baked bull**** and bombast that dominates this board.

But, I guess it takes all sorts to make a footy club.

If you can't stand the 'bickering' put me on your 'ignore' list and you'll never hear from me again!

[NMWBloods]

Originally posted by chammond
And how does changing his game help that? Making him a second rate spoiler won't make him a better defender. Encoraging him to be the best marking, rebounding, long-kicking defender in the comp is a much better option.

I have no problem with him doing these things, but you cannot be a good defender IMHO without the ability to play a good defensive game. Even Leppitsch, the archetypal attacking CHB, can play defensively and spoil if necessary (although he doesn't do it very much and this is a weakness of his that can be exploited). Same with Fletcher - also very attacking, but outstanding as a spoiler.

The best players in any position are those that make the absolute most of the skills they've got. The champions are the ones who don't listen to the cliches; they just focus on being better than everyone else.

Saddo isn't, and never will be, a clogger; trying to make him into a spoiling defender will just ruin a good player.

But what happens when he runs into a key forward who is simply stronger and a better mark than him? Then he has nothing to fall back on.

Yeah, but Fletcher et al didn't become top players by copying each other, nor do they approach their games in the same way . . . they play their own games and make the most of what their good at. And I'm absolutely certain that they don't see 'spoiling' as their number one target - the reason they're champions is because their overriding aim is to get the ball.

I'm not suggesting he copy anyone; what I am suggesting is that he needs to have a defensive element to his game, which is where I think he is lacking. I also think that for these players their overriding aim is to stop their opponent getting the ball.

The reason I argue with NMWBloods is because he (she? sorry I don't know for sure) expresses opinions that are well thought out and interesting.

It's pleasant to debate football with the dozen or so posters who actually know what they are talking about, and it's certainly a lot more creative than the half-baked bull**** and bombast that dominates this board.

I'm a he! CH and I do 'argue' quite a bit because we have different views on a number of things, but it's certainly more in the line of a debate than an argument. This is one of the main reasons I use this site. I enjoy a vigorous debate where I can put forward my views and see other people's views.

[Tooth Fairy]

Originally posted by lizz
One person's 'bickering' is another person's healthy discussion. Surely the whole point of a forum like this is to debate points of view. It's certainly more interesting than the constant "bagfest" of players that some like to engage in.

true on the bagfest Lizz however these two have a history of "healthy discussions" between each other, and neither back down. Don't get me wrong, that's a good quality in a person, but an even better quality is to know when to let bygones be bygones. So long as there's no angst shown unlike what poor widdle chammy just threw towards me.

[floppinab]

I'd hate to see Saddo give up his marking altogether in the backline. It's the best part of his game IMO.

What he needs to improve is his *decision making*, when to mark and when to spoil.
There's no doubt he got caught out trying to mark more than he should have this year, he just needs to be able to make a better split second decision to mark or spoil and then nail it. I think when he does chose to spoil he's OK he just gets wrong a little too often.

Dunkley IMO had the reverse problem spoiled markable balls a little too often.

[NMWBloods]

Originally posted by floppinab
I'd hate to see Saddo give up his marking altogether in the backline. It's the best part of his game IMO.

What he needs to improve is his *decision making*, when to mark and when to spoil.
There's no doubt he got caught out trying to mark more than he should have this year, he just needs to be able to make a better split second decision to mark or spoil and then nail it. I think when he does chose to spoil he's OK he just gets wrong a little too often.

Yep - I think decision making is probably the most important thing he needs to work on. But, I still think some of his defensive work could do with improvement too.