Roos warns of Sydney "catastrophe"

[SwansFan1972]

I think the confusion is in your arguments.

On the contrary - I think I'm reasonably well across the main issues. It's easy to infer things when you want to denigrate an opinion different to your own, but its better to stick to what is actually written.

It is fanciful to suggest that the Swans have any real hold on WS now, so how can they "relinquish" something you don't have?
Then you later argue that WS will not buy into AFL!??

So which way is it - the Swans have WS and won't relinquish it or the AFL will struggle to have a presence because of rugby league Dads?.

I didn't suggest the Swans "had" western Sydney. The thrust of my argument - again - is that no-one does. The Swans have put efforts in there - the success or otherwise can be judged by others - but the overriding impression "out there" is that the west isn't even certain that it wants to be had. Fact - the Swans have put development time, effort and money into the west. Fact - there are passionately anti-AFL rugby league elements across Sydney - not just in the west - for whom AFL will never be an option. Much the same as there are (much greater) swathes of Melbournians and Victorians who could not be dragged kicking and screaming to a rugby league game.

You've made your position very clear - which is your right, just like it is everyone's right to make their point. Like the field of dreams, you believe in "build it and they will come". That's fine, and if it turns out to be true, then fantastic! We'd all like nothing more than seeing packed grounds watching AFL every weekend here with two healthy local clubs, but you should at least admit that based on evidence at the moment - it is a huge gamble, and whatever (admirable) passion you feel for WSFC, it isn't people like you driving its establishment.

The push for the WSFC is not coming from people in the west! It isn't coming because fans are locked out of AFL games in Sydney because the games are oversold. It isn't coming to rectify some fictional "west won't support east" nonsense. It isn't coming because of some good hearted interest from the AFL in providing choice for kids sport. It isn't coming because west sydney people can't be bothered venturing past the end of their street (that's called taking licence with what someone writes, and embellishing it ridiculously - but I don't really need to explain that to you).

It is being driven by an AFL executive blinded by its own wealth and power, because they think an extra game for broadcast into Melbourne will make them more money in broadcast deals. It isn't even really about advertising revenue in Sydney (TV figures here are appalling). In the long term, if the WSFC finds itself in the dangerous position of costing the AFL more than they think it is making (or can make), it will be cut loose. The AFL executive is spreading happiness and cheer about WSFC's prospects, with suitable grave noises about how they understand the big up-front cost. The fact remains they are entering the great unknown, basically with fingers crossed. In spite of their incredible self belief (some might say arrogance) they aren't always the supremely clever dicks they think they are financially. The stadium deals issue in Melbourne shows that they don't always get it right where the dollars are concerned.

No they won't. Sydneysiders are generally territorial and don't like crossing bridges etc. The public transport and roads here contribute to this strong mentality. Convenience is very important.

What baloney. Sydneysiders - and Aussies generally - will happily drive for ages to get to something. A two hour trip in each direction to have lunch is not un-heard of (at risk of opening up a whole new line of attack, some pommie rellies of ours plan for months to travel that far)!

A gross overstatement in terms of the numbers of parents who force their kids to follow one sport. Programs like Auskick and the RL game shooting itself in the foot will more than grow the game in spite of a small minoriity of pushy parents. Plus the fact that many parents are looking for alternatives to RL!.

Really - we'll see I guess.

Don't worry, Santa's coming to town.

Cool - bring him on.

[Kanga]

Already thinking ahead with The Kanga's imminent demise?

Yep. They can find some other team to pay off the Telstra Dome debt!

[SwansFan1972]

Western Sydney will never follow the East.

Last time I checked, we were still called the Sydney Swans. The days of the club appealing only to the eastern suburbs are long gone.

The West needs its own team..

The AFL wants an 18th team. West Sydney is a convenient vehicle - they think/wish/hope.

A Western Sydney side will more than double the radio & newspaper
coverage, with a game in town each week to cover AFL news..

Which will amount to, say, a full page buried next to the trots results and classifieds in the Tele, instead of half a page. Woo hoo.

The People in the West enjoy participating in good local products available.

If AFL is a great local product fans will be attracted..

You and Bear make it sound like west Sydney people never go anywhere. Since when did 25-40k's away become "not local"!

As locals become the next superstars people will take notice.

I can't wait until Western Sydney has their own Lenny Hayes or Kieren Jack running around, now that will be a great time, when the local kids become the local sporting heroes

Kieran's here already. Take notice of him. He's in your local team!

[Bear]

Sounds to me like the ACT will have its own team rather than having to share with Western Sydney. Oddly enough we have Swans on our coat of arms. I'm therefore am not sure what our mascot will be although the team will have blue and yellow for its colours.

You're dreaming. The ACT will be used to support Western Sydney the team like Tassie does to Hawthorn. Simple as that.

[Bear]

And the 15 million needed each year will come from where? Blacktown City Council? In case you haven't noticed there is a depression. Sporting sponsorship is being squeezed in the already most competative sporting market in the world. And if it is suggested that the Western Whatevers be financially supported by the AFL that is sheer irresponsibility. That money should go into the development of the grass roots game in NSW. If you want to join a club with an ethos of western toughness try the Bandidos.

We don't even have a technical recession and you jibber on about a depression.

If you did your research you would be aware that AFL NSW/ACT is already putting a lot into the grass roots in the West. incuding great new facilities and junior teams. Bringing in an AFL team (they can relate to in their area) will leverage this investment and create the generational change we should all want.

[Bear]

Last time I checked, we were still called the Sydney Swans. The days of the club appealing only to the eastern suburbs are long gone.

The SSFC does not appeal to the Greater West. This is a fact based on TV ratings, Swans memberships, media coverage - every major measurement - so this is the reality. Not sure which planet you are on but we are 'Sydney' in name but 'inner Sydney' in nature, and based in the East.

Accept the status quo if you want, but any good organisation makes strategic decisions to grow their product. That is what the AFL is doing. Thankfully they have the vision that you lack.

[SwansFan1972]

The SSFC does not appeal to the Greater West. This is a fact based on TV ratings, Swans memberships, media coverage - every major measurement - so this is the reality. Not sure which planet you are on but we are 'Sydney' in name but 'inner Sydney' in nature, and based in the East.

Accept the status quo if you want, but any good organisation makes strategic decisions to grow their product. That is what the AFL is doing. Thankfully they have the vision that you lack.

The planet that regularly sees good crowds at Homebush. The planet that knows people travel from Wollongong (where I used to live, and the number of scarves and bumper stickers evident on the highway attest to the support), and also from Campbelltown (home now) to see AFL. People come from the central coast, and those who care enough in the west obviously go to games. TV ratings for home games are crap in Sydney because anyone who gives a @@@@ about AFL is at the game.

If you took the blinkers off for just a minute you might see that perhaps it's "the product", rather than the deliverer of it, which is the issue.

Throwing in the word "strategic" doesn't automatically buy credibility you know. The extent of the AFL's stategy amounts to, "gee, there's three million westies there - wouldn't it be nice if they liked us and we could turn a dollar out of them". Perhaps you should write "please like us" on a note, put it under your pillow and pray every night for the success of the WSFC. It can't hurt, can it? And will be about as strategic as anything else the AFL does.

And we can all have visions. LSD is apparently a very reliable source, or any number of funny shaped little pills. What is seen might not be much use though.

For both our sakes, we should probably just let it lie now - each side has been pretty comprehensively put and it will take 10-15 years to figure out who has got it right. For what it's worth, I sincerely (genuinely) hope it is you!

[connolly]

Kieran's here already. Take notice of him. He's in your local team!

Of course the kid who epitomises the wild west is tyro Bevo. Tough as a Bandido's missus with PMT and a flannelette footballer if ever there was one. Unhappily both the Bear and one percent reckon that the fibro kid is not good enough for their suburban outfit. Apparently it will be a team of silky skills out west.

[connolly]

We don't even have a technical recession and you jibber on about a depression.

If you did your research you would be aware that AFL NSW/ACT is already putting a lot into the grass roots in the West. incuding great new facilities and junior teams. Bringing in an AFL team (they can relate to in their area) will leverage this investment and create the generational change we should all want.

Where i live which used to be the manufacturing heartland of this country we are in a depression. And the good citizenry of Western Sydney are going to pony up the 15 million every year to keep the dream alive? Right.

[Bear]

TV ratings for home games are crap in Sydney because anyone who gives a @@@@ about AFL is at the game.

That's exactly why we need to start a team that appeals to the other half of Sydney.

If you took the blinkers off for just a minute you might see that perhaps it's "the product", rather than the deliverer of it, which is the issue.

No, it's that they haven't grown up with the game, they are doing that now and team to follow will solidify the generational change.

For both our sakes, we should probably just let it lie now - each side has been pretty comprehensively put and it will take 10-15 years to figure out who has got it right. For what it's worth, I sincerely (genuinely) hope it is you!

No worries, but you'll start to change your tune in the first year of the WSFC when the AFL generates week-in week-out promotion that grows the game at all levels of participation, as well as the revenues.

[Nico]

You said it.

Your statements about the supposed appearance and motives of the new western Sydney team's supporters are nothing but the most ignorant prejudice. AFL supporters in Sydney per se have a completely different demographic and psychograhic profile to NRL supporters, regardless of the team. Our supporters who live out west are perfect examples of this.

What is the demographic of the Western Suburbs of Sydney.

[Xie Shan]

Playing devil's advocate for a minute, I wouldn't be surprised if the AFL thinks that they've squeezed all the support they can from the Swans 'brand' in Sydney and would rather start afresh with a new franchise given the state of our list and the 'ugly' footy that we supposedly play, such that they're willing to cop the risk that one of the two Sydney teams won't survive if things turn out not so well on-field... bugger the history and tradition of one of the league's foundation clubs, it's a business to them...

Still, I'm a Swans supporter first and foremost and want to see our club succeed and grow, and play in winning finals again... I'd still much rather be in our position than that of the Kangas and Dees! My gut feel is that I think we'll ride out the 'recession' (whether it's official or not) -- hell, if we could survive the dark days of the early 90's we can get through anything!!

[Bas]

What is the demographic of the Western Suburbs of Sydney.

The new ground is very well placed in terms of access from 5 major Council areas. Liverpool to the south, Blacktown nearby, Penrith west but linked by freeway so about 15 minutes away, Richmond about 20 kms away.

Add to this Parramatta down the road by freeway and Baulkham Hills connected by M7 and Campbelltown by M7 and freeway (about 30 to 40 mins drive).

So it is well placed to access a HUGE population probably close to 1.5 million if not more. Would be very similar to Collingwood supporters and Swans would be the Carlton.

Something that no one has mentioned as best as I can tell, there are alot of VERY LARGE Islander kids playing rugby league. So parents will want the kids to play something else. If the team can be competitive straight away, it will work. However it might be at the expense initially of Swans supporters rather than new converts.

[Bear]

Playing devil's advocate for a minute, I wouldn't be surprised if the AFL thinks that they've squeezed all the support they can from the Swans 'brand' in Sydney and would rather start afresh with a new franchise given the state of our list and the 'ugly' footy that we supposedly play, such that they're willing to cop the risk that one of the two Sydney teams won't survive if things turn out not so well on-field... bugger the history and tradition of one of the league's foundation clubs, it's a business to them...

To suggest that the AFL would happily let the Swans die after 25 years of hard work - and start again - is too ridiculous to take seriously. They want to grow the market, not go back to square one.

The first bit is right though - the Swans have naturally plateaud given Sydney (like most major cities) is a fragmented market with different regions and demographics.

To grow the product/game in Sydney we need something that appeals to different people - and in their LOCAL area.

[Xie Shan]

To suggest that the AFL would happily let the Swans die after 25 years of hard work - and start again - is too ridiculous to take seriously. They want to grow the market, not go back to square one.

Of course. That's why I said I was playing the devil's advocate. I just sometimes wonder about the machinations (sp?) and thought processes that go on behind the scenes at AFL house, especially when the proposed 17th team rocks up to their TAC cup games wearing this. (Get your own colours!!! )

I don't think they would let us die, I just fear that if we did run into financial trouble, the AFL and the other clubs may not be quite so forthcoming with support as they were last time if there were another franchise here. But it's extremely unlikely.