trade requirments

[NMWBloods]

Originally posted by Steve
Saddington has played on key forward in the past and done well. Particularly in 2001 when he played on Hamill, Chris Grant and John Barker (the year he kicked 47), holding each of them to 1 goal.

From memory that was the year he played on Kouta for a while to give Dunks a break and he did very well.

So the argument that he's never played well at CHB, or against quality opponents, isn't right.

Never said he hasn't played well - I said he is not a great defender and has not performed regularly well. He is not the sort of defender that I feel comfortable watching, unlike some others.

I don't mind people criticising players as such, but IMO it is very unfair to critise Saddington for not being up to playing a position that he's never been given an extended opportunity to play in.

I've simply criticised his efforts as a defensive player. Never said he was crap or no good or he should be traded. I simply stated my opinion (and a number of others have done also) that he has not really stood out as either a great defender or a high-quality key position backman. Of course, maybe he might grow into it, but he has a lot of work to do on his defensive efforts (eg: punching). Experience will certainly help, however I am simply pointing out that some players with equal or less experience have performed better as a defender than him.

I notice a few back-out clauses coming out late in this thread, eg. "with a lot of work to do", "has simply not established himself as a great CHB" (who had done that in the history of the game by 23?), "other ... supporters do not recognise Saddington as a top-flight defender" etc.

No back-out clauses. As I said above, all along I have simply said he hasn't stood out as a high-quality defender yet and needs to do a lot of work. None of these comments have come late in the thread, but have been consistent in my comments throughout.

As for this quote - "has simply not established himself as a great CHB" - I haven't said that anywhere!!

As for referring to "other" supporters, that is just to say that other people have also thought it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

I think I've tried to strenuously argue why Saddington will be a very good CHB - the response has been a few half-hearted queries over whether he has already proven beyond doubt that he's a great CHB.

What a load of rubbish. I've said nothing of the sort and neither has anyone else. What I have queried is that he has not established himself as a very good and very reliable defender - he's okay but not great. Other players have done that at his age already. That he'll improve I don't doubt, and never have. That he will become a great CHB, that remains to be seen and he has a lot of work to do that. That he needs more experience in that position to get better I have conceded, however I don't think this is the complete reason for him not being a really good and reliable key position defender.

I can see the responses if/when Saddington is named AA CHB - "all I/we did was query how good he had been", "yeah he improved which was what I/we said he had to, so I'm pleased he proved me right" etc etc.

I'd prefer critics made an authoritative statement now along the lines of "he will never be a key defender".

Why? Why is not feasible to say that someone is not performing as well as they should be and you would like to see them improve, and comment on some of their weaknesses?

Anyway, if people did come out and say definitively that he will never make CHB then they would be told they are talking crap. Have you come out and definitively said he will become AA CHB? No - you've said if/when. Why is it okay not to be definitive unless you are providing some criticism?

[NMWBloods]

Originally posted by Reggi
Interesting that you believe that over the internet you can read my state of mind. Frank and direct yep - abusive - no - all my comments have been on the commentary in this thread.

Oh, and "You are speaking utter utter crap - and just making it up." is the mark of someone providing insightful and cogent arguments in a completely friendly fashion...

I can only gather from this that you are unwilling to back - up what were statements that thus far have not been supported by anything but opinion.

Steve - couldn't agree more

But everything here is opinion. Nearly everything involved in football is opinion and inherently subjective. That I can't quote chapter and verse of his poor games (or his great games) simply means I don't have that much detail at hand. Rather, I am basing it on my views of seeing those games and watching football for a very long time.

I am basing my comments on my opinions, exactly as you are. However, you seem to think that only your opinions count, and the opinions of people who agree with you.

[Craig]

Originally posted by NMWBloods


But everything here is opinion. Nearly everything involved in football is opinion and inherently subjective. That I can't quote chapter and verse of his poor games (or his great games) simply means I don't have that much detail at hand. Rather, I am basing it on my views of seeing those games and watching football for a very long time.

I am basing my comments on my opinions, exactly as you are. However, you seem to think that only your opinions count, and the opinions of people who agree with you.

Yes this requiring 'facts' has stumped me too. As you say, football is about opinion. No good stating all statistics as proof. A person who is a good judge of footy will have an opinion of far more worth then statistics.

I think some people on here spend all their time looking for fancy little stats and have to develop their statements from that. This most likely is due to a lack of any real knowledge of football.

[Reggi]

Originally posted by Craig
As a key defender Bolton is able to handle bigger forwards better even though he is shorter and weighs less.

Really interesting - when did that happen?

and hasn't played good defensive football regularly.

Other than when he was unfit - or shagged and replaced - when has Saddington been dropped or moved away from CHB.

When did he play all this poor footy - cause I ain't seen it.

Just tell us when it happened - when was he playing so poorly? Other than when he was injured

Roy Morgan quote is the reason that statistics are so important is to remove people- journalists claiming opinion as fact.

I am basing my comments on my opinions, exactly as you are. However, you seem to think that only your opinions count, and the opinions of people who agree with you.

No you are consistently saying things like

and hasn't played good defensive football regularly. I also said I don't think he's played as well as either Bolton or Schauble in the key positions in the back line.

As both myself and Steve (and BBB) have kept pointing out - you happy to keep on saying he hasn't been good - but when the hell was it it?

Whilst it may not seem that way to you you're equivocating on every statement you make.

I fail to see how a player who was one of only two players who were consistently in a defence that was statistically ranked 2nd and 5th was such a poor player.

[NMWBloods]

Originally posted by Reggi
Really interesting - when did that happen?

Why did Roos put Bolton on Neitz instead of Saddington? Saddo played some good games in 2001 for example (as Steve has mentioned) but also played some poor ones, like when Hird towelled him up and Barker kicked 4.3 in the final. Or we can consider his last three games against Tarrant - 12.6 against! I'd also question as to how well he did on Grant in Steves example, given Grant had 19 possessions, 8 marks and kicked 1.2 - not a bad effort from CHF. Have a look at how bad his effort was against Carey this year - sure Saddo had been injured, but it was his fifth game back and he had a shocker and I think the injury could only account for part of that. Note that Cloke, a second year player, destroyed Carey the following week.

Like I've said many times, He's played some good and some bad, however to me, and to many others, he just doesn't come across as a great key defensive player at this stage.

Other than when he was unfit - or shagged and replaced - when has Saddington been dropped or moved away from CHB.

Well, according to Steve he's only played at CHB on occasion...

When did he play all this poor footy - cause I ain't seen it.

Just tell us when it happened - when was he playing so poorly? Other than when he was injured

Like I said (again), he has played some games where he has been beaten and he has played a number of games when his defensive skills have not looked great and he doesn't come across as a key position defender. I'm not the only one who has said this.

No you are consistently saying things like

"I also said I don't think he's played as well as either Bolton or Schauble in the key positions in the back line."

As both myself and Steve (and BBB) have kept pointing out - you happy to keep on saying he hasn't been good - but when the hell was it it?

Note that I said - "I think" - hence it is my opinion. Have you noticed quite a few other people have commented they don't think he is suited as CHB or has not stood out as such. That is an opinion. I've noted on many occasions when he has tried to mark instead of punch and when his recovery has not been great.

I fail to see how a player who was one of only two players who were consistently in a defence that was statistically ranked 2nd and 5th was such a poor player.

And at what point did I say he was a poor player? Now you're just putting words into my mouth to suit your arguments.

I have not suggested he is crap nor he should be traded. I simply think he is not suited as our CHB at this stage. That means he would make a useful HBF or he should improve dramatically to be a top-line CHB. Even as HBF he needs to make some adjustments to his defensive game.

[Plugger46]

Reggi,

Have a good hard look at yourself mate. You're talking absolute crap. Saddo is not half the footballer C.Bolton is, and never will be. He will never be a key position player, as soon as people realise it the better. He can only play on a wing or flank.

There was only one time this year that C.Bolton was out-gunned, if my memory serves me correctly, and that was when Fevola beat him out at Carlton. Saddo played a hell of a lot less games, and got a towelling virtually everytime he played. Brown, Carey, Rawlings, Jolly, White, Croad and Tarrant (Saddo did alright, but Tarrant kicked 5 or 6) all beat him convincingly, and there are probably more that did the same thing to him. Reggi, you are deluding yourself mate.

C.Bolton beat Brown (after Saddo copped a belting), Richardson and numerous others.

Reggi where have you been this year? Saddo is not a CHB's arsehole. I hope he can make it next year on a wing or Flank.

[Steve]

Originally posted by NMWBloods
As for this quote - "has simply not established himself as a great CHB" - I haven't said that anywhere!!

I don't want to sound like a smartarse but you might want to go back and read through everything you've written to refresh your memory.

Over the years Saddington has done his job (sometimes big tasks other times not so) with a minimum of fuss. The fact that he hasn't 'stood out' whilst playing in defence his entire career is actually a pretty significant backhanded compliment - if guys were kicking 6 on him week in and week out it sure as hell would 'stand out'.

I assume all of the comments similar to 'hasn't stood out', 'struggled', 'better suited to a flank', 'Schauble and Bolton have done better' have been tainted by a couple of performances this year when under duress (eg. vs Carey), and then remembering a handful of instances where he's unsuccessfully tried to get a spoil in.

The original sticking point (and what I was commenting about Saddington not having had experience of doing regularly) was that he couldn't play on the big 'power forwards'.

As it stands (and correct me if I'm wrong), you're position is that he 'hasn't stood out as a high-quality defender yet and needs to do a lot of work, but this is based on a general opinion and no (stated) examples/events in particular?

Again not trying to be a smartarse, but I think this is what is frustrating those who think Saddington is a good player - the criticisms are just so vague and general.

[Reggi]

Originally posted by Plugger46
Reggi,

Have a good hard look at yourself mate. You're talking absolute crap. Saddo is not half the footballer C.Bolton is, and never will be. He will never be a key position player, as soon as people realise it the better. He can only play on a wing or flank.

There was only one time this year that C.Bolton was out-gunned, if my memory serves me correctly, and that was when Fevola beat him out at Carlton. Saddo played a hell of a lot less games, and got a towelling virtually everytime he played. Brown, Carey, Rawlings, Jolly, White, Croad and Tarrant (Saddo did alright, but Tarrant kicked 5 or 6) all beat him convincingly, and there are probably more that did the same thing to him. Reggi, you are deluding yourself mate.

C.Bolton beat Brown (after Saddo copped a belting), Richardson and numerous others.

Reggi where have you been this year? Saddo is not a CHB's arsehole. I hope he can make it next year on a wing or Flank.

You have an interesting memory - again Bolton did ok on Richardson - kept him to one goal - but mostly cause Richo is Richo. He still took nine marks that evening. Again diminished expectations may him look good.

Whom are the numerous others?

Certainly it is my recollection that Bolton has been moved off plenty - ie Ben Graham to be replaced by Barry.

I can think of at least two Melb games where Saddington kept Tarrant out of the game until it was essentially all over.

The only player that I have seen Saddington consistently struggle on is Tredrea - who is too strong in the lower body for him.

Other than that agree with Steve all we get are the vast generalisations

When was he so poor?

Remember the Hawthorn final very well and it ain't my recollection - my memory is that Saddington had a great first half - when he faded - we got our arse kicked - have seen Saddington towell up Barker on the MCG

[NMWBloods]

Originally posted by Steve
I don't want to sound like a smartarse but you might want to go back and read through everything you've written to refresh your memory.

Ah yes - I have found that. That was specifically said in response to Reggi's claim that he was the mainstay of our defence and that he had done well at CHB. I said that only once - my arguments have been, and repeated constantly, that he has a lot of work to do to become a really good CHB. The quote I have used a bit is basically "I think he has a long way to go to be a really good CHB", yet you have responded to the other quote.

Over the years Saddington has done his job (sometimes big tasks other times not so) with a minimum of fuss. The fact that he hasn't 'stood out' whilst playing in defence his entire career is actually a pretty significant backhanded compliment - if guys were kicking 6 on him week in and week out it sure as hell would 'stand out'.

I assume all of the comments similar to 'hasn't stood out', 'struggled', 'better suited to a flank', 'Schauble and Bolton have done better' have been tainted by a couple of performances this year when under duress (eg. vs Carey), and then remembering a handful of instances where he's unsuccessfully tried to get a spoil in.

I have watched Saddo since he started. I've said many many times I like to watch him play as I think he has good skills. However, his defensive work is sometimes good and sometimes below par, and some things could be improved. I enjoy watching defenders and I've noted their performances. I'd love to see him play off half back as our third tall, rather than as our CHB.

The original sticking point (and what I was commenting about Saddington not having had experience of doing regularly) was that he couldn't play on the big 'power forwards'.

As it stands (and correct me if I'm wrong), you're position is that he 'hasn't stood out as a high-quality defender yet and needs to do a lot of work, but this is based on a general opinion and no (stated) examples/events in particular?

I noted that he was beaten by Carey and Barker, was not played on Neitz until the last choice. Against Tarrant, he plays well for a while, but Tarrant always seems to get away from him and has average 4 goals per game against him.

Of course I can't remember lots of specifics, however over a number of years an impression is formed. I am not alone in the opinion, that at this stage, he is not the man for the power forwards. Why is it that people are calling for a strong defender as one of the two major recruits we need. Nearly everyone has called for that. If Saddo was the man, we wouldn't need that sort of recruit.

Again not trying to be a smartarse, but I think this is what is frustrating those who think Saddington is a good player - the criticisms are just so vague and general.

Not saying you are a smartarse (yes, I recall I said that once before, but I did apologise ) and I think your arguments have been good and well structured. I simply don't agree with them all and have formed a different opinion. It's rather hard though to give concrete examples on defensive efforts of more than eighteen months ago. It seems to me too, that other people also have a different opinion.

[NMWBloods]

Originally posted by Reggi
You have an interesting memory - again Bolton did ok on Richardson - kept him to one goal - but mostly cause Richo is Richo. He still took nine marks that evening. Again diminished expectations may him look good.

Whom are the numerous others?

Certainly it is my recollection that Bolton has been moved off plenty - ie Ben Graham to be replaced by Barry.

Being pretty small, Bolton is sometimes outsized so he needs to be moved at times. I'm not saying Bolton is a vastly better footballer than Saddo or that he is a great CHB. All I've said is that he seems to have adjusted better to tall forwards than Saddo has done and with less experience.

Bolton beat Brown in Brisbane and did a good job on Neitz.

I can think of at least two Melb games where Saddington kept Tarrant out of the game until it was essentially all over.

Tarrant killed Saddo in the last qtr of both those games - in the first one, it was a key factor why we lost and in the second one, it looked being the same again for a little while.

Other than that agree with Steve all we get are the vast generalisations

And yet, a number of people have that opinion.

When was he so poor?

Remember the Hawthorn final very well and it ain't my recollection - my memory is that Saddington had a great first half - when he faded - we got our arse kicked - have seen Saddington towell up Barker on the MCG

Well, he did fade and Barker kicked 4.3 - that would suggest a poor game.

Yet again I will spell it out for you. I don't think Saddo is crap. I simply think that at this stage he is not the man for our CHB position. Other people also think this given the frequent calls for a large key position defender as one of our two main recruiting aims.

[Reggi]

Plenty of people don't share that opinion as well - in fact I think it is fair to say that there is a select group who seem to enjoy potting a number of players.

Although I admit I have done the same with M Nicks



Saddo started playing CHB from mid 2000 my recollection is he was very good in 2001 solid in 2002 before having a blow-out in 2003

Happens - there are few players on our list that in their development haven't been like that, Goodes and Bolton in particular.

But saying over the previous two seasons that he ahdn't shown enough to suggest he will be a good CHB - is way outta line.

The C Bolton has performed better than Saddington is pretty funny really

[Craig]

Originally posted by Reggi
Really interesting - when did that happen?

Well there was a player called Mathew Richardson, another called Jonathon Brown (round 20 against Lions). Now if my memory serves me correctly, Saddington was moved off Brown that day because he had 3 goals kicked on him in the first quarter.

Throw in Neitz and I think we have a case that Craig Bolton has had a great year and has consistently beaten bigger opponents.

[liz]

Without wanting to join in the debate - my view sits somewhere between the two - I do think it's sometimes very difficult to assess the performance of key defenders in specific matches.

When the opposition's midfield is on top and delivering the ball quickly and accurately, a defender is going to have marks taken on him and probably goals kicked against him. That's what happened in the final quarter of the first Collingwood game this year and I doubt anyone would have been able to contain Tarrant during that period. But Saddo did a very disciplined job earlier on in preventing Tarrant having an impact when the delivery was so-so.

I agree B2 played a very good game on Brown in the second Brisbane game - he was setting up play very constructively as well - Brown did still take some marks close to goal and really should have kicked at least two goals on Bolton. That would have won the Lions the game and Bolton's performance would probably have been rated lower. Yet it had nothing to do with Bolton that Brown kicked very poorly for goal.

I reckon it's a lot easier to "measure" the effectiveness of a forward's performance, or even a midfielder, than a defender.

[Reggi]

Originally posted by Craig
Well there was a player called Mathew Richardson, another called Jonathon Brown (round 20 against Lions). Now if my memory serves me correctly, Saddington was moved off Brown that day because he had 3 goals kicked on him in the first quarter.

Throw in Neitz and I think we have a case that Craig Bolton has had a great year and has consistently beaten bigger opponents.

Everyone has said - and I don't think anyone disputes it - he had an ordinary year.

J Brown should have ended up with 5 or 6 (he kicked 3 goals 4), in the end Bolton looked better than Saddo because Brown's accuracy alluded him.

Bolton clearly stuggled on Brown, Walker (a dead set dud)and Lade in just the final weeks of the season

To suggest he has done better than Saddington on tall players is seriously stretching the truth.

[Craig]

Originally posted by Reggi
Everyone has said - and I don't think anyone disputes it - he had an ordinary year.

J Brown should have ended up with 5 or 6 (he kicked 3 goals 4), in the end Bolton looked better than Saddo because Brown's accuracy alluded him.

Bolton clearly stuggled on Brown, Walker (a dead set dud)and Lade in just the final weeks of the season

To suggest he has done better than Saddington on tall players is seriously stretching the truth.

Let me clarify something. I'm saying that Bolton has had a better year than Saddington. This should not be in dispute. Let's not get into the reasons for this, we all know Saddington has been injured. Facts - Look who finished higer in the B&F.

I'm not trying to knock Saddington, I just believe that more credit should be shown to Bolton who has had an excellent year and performed better than Saddington on bigger opponents. Remember Saddinton is also bigger than Bolton so therefore he should be more advantaged.

You mention the Port game and Lade. Leo Barry played on Lade for a lot of this match so it wasn't all Bolton's fault. Maybe the fact that he is a ruckman and Bolton is a flanker might have had something to do with it.

Saying Bolton clearly stuggled on Brown is a joke. Did you fail to see the Gabba match? This would imply that Bolton is able to at least match it with Brown.