The Final Quarter / The Australian Dream (AG documentaries) and related discussion

[S.S. Bleeder]

They were able to retaliate and defend themselves. The Essendon player knocked away Stack's invisible spear with his invisible shield! You must have missed it.

No worries. If we ever meet one day I'll yell and scream in your face and we'll see how you react okay? If someone's does that to me I'm either walking away or clobering them.

[Meg]

Adam Goodes

Yeah, or maybe point out that their ultimate darling Leigh Matthews was deregistered for a month for smashing someone's jaw in miles behind play. Not sure I recall Goodesie ever doing that.

Nor do I recall him ramming a player's head into the goalpost or drink driving the way Luke Hodge did.

What I do recall is him starting a foundation to assist some of the most disadvantaged people in society.

There are so many stupid people in the world. The frustrating thing is you will never change them.

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I’m right now watching Richmond v North Melbourne. Don’t hear Bachar Houli (who knocked Jed Lamb unconscious) being booed relentlessly every time he goes near the ball (which is often).

Let me add, I was much more sympathetic to Houli than most (I never believed he meant to hit Lamb in the head). But the hypocrisy of those who claim they booed Goodes because he was a dirty player is obvious.

[S.S. Bleeder]

that sounds a little racist. there were no black people in positions of power to make a stand. there were plenty of white poeple who could have done something but didnt, be more angry at them.

Hang on. On one hand you're saying that individuals were "racist" by booing Goodes or by not taking a stand against it, yet indigenous AFL footballers are excused for not taking a stance against it? You can't have it both ways.

FWIW I found the booing of Goodes as poor form but it wasn't racist. It was because of his diving for frees and being a good player. Later on it was probably because of his very controversial comments.

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I’m right now watching Richmond v North Melbourne. Don’t hear Bachar Houli (who knocked Jed Lamb unconscious) being booed relentlessly every time he goes near the ball (which is often).

Let me add, I was much more sympathetic to Houli than most (I never believed he meant to hit Lamb in the head). But the hypocrisy of those who claim they booed Goodes because he was a dirty player is obvious.

If Goodes was booed because of racism then shouldn't Houlihan be booed as well?

[Velour&Ruffles]

No worries. If we ever meet one day I'll yell and scream in your face and we'll how you react okay? If someone's does that to me I'm either walking away or clobering them.

Hi SS Bleeder. Do you think there's a difference between someone doing the same dance:

(a) when they are an AFL player 50 metres away from you, who is on a nationally televised broadcast, who is subject to intense media scrutiny, who is separated from you by a fence, who is playing in a stadium full of police and security officers, who is performing an Indigenous dance in a round (allegedly) celebrating Indigenous culture, who is taking part in a game which you aren't part of, when you are one of tens of thousands of people in the crowd attending a game that thrives on emotionally demonstrative responses from players, when those responses have never once in the game's more than century long history resulted in a player harming a fan*; vs
(b) a stranger doing the same movement to you on a public street, where random unprovoked violence happens a lot, right in your own face, untelevised, not part of a crowd, not part of a game, not part of a day (allegedly) devoted to celebrating Indigenous culture, with no police or security officers around ?

Personally I find my reaction to those two scenarios is different. From your post I get the feeling that you think they would evoke more emotionally equivalent reactions than I do - that they are essentially the same thing when you are on the receiving end. But I won't be so arrogant as to presume that I know your mind, so I invite you to explain why you think they're comparable or why you think that I've been unfair in my characterisation of what I see as the enormous and very important dissimilarities between the two scenarios.

* Yes I know about John Bourke but that was in a reserves game 40 years ago and he was punching on not doing a dance.

[S.S. Bleeder]

Hi SS Bleeder. Do you think there's a difference between someone doing the same dance:

(a) when they are an AFL player 50 metres away from you, who is on a nationally televised broadcast, who is subject to intense media scrutiny, who is separated from you by a fence, who is playing in a stadium full of police and security officers, who is performing an Indigenous dance in a round (allegedly) celebrating Indigenous culture, who is taking part in a game which you aren't part of, when you are one of tens of thousands of people in the crowd attending a game that thrives on emotionally demonstrative responses from players, when those responses have never once in the game's more than century long history resulted in a player harming a fan*; vs
(b) a stranger doing the same movement to you on a public street, right in your own face, untelevised, not part of a crowd, not part of a game, not part of a day (allegedly) devoted to celebrating Indigenous culture, with no police or security officers around ?

Personally I find my reaction to those two scenarios is different. From your post I get the feeling that you think they would evoke more emotionally equivalent reactions than I do - that they are essentially the same thing when you are on the receiving end. But I won't be so arrogant as to presume that I know your mind, so I invite you to explain why you think they're comparable or why you think that I've been unfair in my characterisation of what I see as the enormous and very important dissimilarities between the two scenarios.

* Yes I know about John Bourke but that was in a reserves game 40 years ago and he was punching on not doing a dance.

50m away? LOL. Stupid and ignorant comment. Clearly you haven't seen the incident. It's more like 0.5m away.

https://mobile.twitter.com/AFL/status/1132217383655837696

[S.S. Bleeder]

I don’t think this link has been posted. Perceptive article by Daniel Brettig on ESPN.com.

‘Waleed Aly described ... the cause of all the opprobrium directed at Goodes: "What happens is, the minute an Indigenous man stands up and is something other than compliant, the backlash is huge and it is them who are creating division and destroying our culture. And that is ultimately what we boo. We boo our discomfort."

The Final Quarter revisits that discomfort with an honest and unmerciful eye. It deserves to be widely seen.’

Simple sequencing brings untold power to Adam Goodes' story

Waleed Aly is not the person to quote if you want a subjective opinion Meg.

[liz]

If Goodes was booed because of racism then shouldn't Houlihan be booed as well?

Stupid and ignorant comment.

What were you saying?

[Velour&Ruffles]

50m away? LOL. Stupid and ignorant comment. Clearly you haven't seen the incident. It's more like 0.5m away.

Twitter

Really? Here's a clip.
Adam Goodes War Cry Celebration - YouTube

As you'll see, the dance starts a long long way from any fans (he's almost directly in front of goals about 30 m out when he kicks) and ends inside the boundary line. 0.5 metres? Really? 50 metres may have been a bit high but it's a lot more accurate than 0.5 metres.

And any comment on the raft of other differences I mentioned? You could even comment on them individually, just as you did with the distance point (although nothing else). To make that easy for you, I've separated them out so we can see your views on each. Those differences were:

• Event nationally televised
• Event subject to intense media scrutiny
• Event separated from you by a fence
• Event occurring in a stadium full of police and security officers
• Event being an Indigenous dance in a round (allegedly) celebrating Indigenous culture
• Event taking part in a game which you are observing rather than being part of.
• You being one of tens of thousands of people in the crowd, not the specific subject of the action.
• Event occurring when you are attending a game that thrives on emotionally demonstrative responses from players, which have never once in the game's more than century long history resulted in a player harming a fan

Contrast with a stranger doing the same movement to you:

• on a public street,
• right in your own face, not part of a crowd
• untelevised,
• not part of a game,
• not being part of a day (allegedly) devoted to celebrating the culture represented by the action,
• with no police or security officers around ?
  

And a few other questions:

• Were you actually there that night? (i'm curious to know whether you felt personally afraid or if you are simply a concerned samaritan who was feeling protective of others?)
• Are you afraid of Charlie Cameron's invisible motorbike running you over if he loses control of it, whether bursting though you TV screen or at the ground?
• Were you afraid of Mark Williams' invisible gun wounding you if he didn't aim it correctly, either at the ground or through your TV screen?

I will be interested in your comments.

[S.S. Bleeder]

What were you saying?

Bloody auto correct. Houli, not Houlihan.

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Really? Here's a clip.
Adam Goodes War Cry Celebration - YouTube

As you'll see, the dance starts a long long way from any fans (he's almost directly in front of goals about 30 m out when he kicks) and ends inside the boundary line. 0.5 metres? Really? 50 metres may have been a bit high but it's a lot more accurate than 0.5 metres.

And any comment on the raft of other differences I mentioned? You could even comment on them individually, just as you did with the distance point (although nothing else). To make that easy for you, I've separated them out so we can see your views on each. Those differences were:

• Event nationally televised
• Event subject to intense media scrutiny
• Event separated from you by a fence
• Event occurring in a stadium full of police and security officers
• Event being an Indigenous dance in a round (allegedly) celebrating Indigenous culture
• Event taking part in a game which you are observing rather than being part of.
• You being one of tens of thousands of people in the crowd, not the specific subject of the action.
• Event occurring when you are attending a game that thrives on emotionally demonstrative responses from players, which have never once in the game's more than century long history resulted in a player harming a fan

Contrast with a stranger doing the same movement to you:

• on a public street,
• right in your own face, not part of a crowd
• untelevised,
• not part of a game,
• not being part of a day (allegedly) devoted to celebrating the culture represented by the action,
• with no police or security officers around ?
  

And a few other questions:

• Were you actually there that night? (i'm curious to know whether you felt personally afraid or if you are simply a concerned samaritan who was feeling protective of others?)
• Are you afraid of Charlie Cameron's invisible motorbike running you over if he loses control of it, whether bursting though you TV screen or at the ground?
• Were you afraid of Mark Williams' invisible gun wounding you if he didn't aim it correctly, either at the ground or through your TV screen?

I will be interested in your comments.

How did the Adam Goodes spear dance come into this? We were talking about the Sydney Stack spear dance.

[Faunac8]

Hang on. On one hand you're saying that individuals were "racist" by booing Goodes or by not taking a stand against it, yet indigenous AFL footballers are excused for not taking a stance against it? You can't have it both ways.

FWIW I found the booing of Goodes as poor form but it wasn't racist. It was because of his diving for frees and being a good player. Later on it was probably because of his very controversial comments.
What you found and what most people felt are obviously different
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If Goodes was booed because of racism then shouldn't Houlihan be booed as well?

Possibly people find it easier and safer to boo an indigenous person than a Muslim?

[Bloods05]

No worries. If we ever meet one day I'll yell and scream in your face and we'll see how you react okay? If someone's does that to me I'm either walking away or clobering them.

Heritage humour.

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Hang on. On one hand you're saying that individuals were "racist" by booing Goodes or by not taking a stand against it, yet indigenous AFL footballers are excused for not taking a stance against it? You can't have it both ways.

FWIW I found the booing of Goodes as poor form but it wasn't racist. It was because of his diving for frees and being a good player. Later on it was probably because of his very controversial comments.

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If Goodes was booed because of racism then shouldn't Houlihan be booed as well?

Can't stand those Irish.

[The Big Cat]

FWIW I found the booing of Goodes as poor form but it wasn't racist. It was because of his diving for frees and being a good player. Later on it was probably because of his very controversial comments.

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They weren't controversial. They were an uncomfortable truth that many people don't want to hear from a person they think doesn't know his place. Waleed Aly's summary was spot on, and I suspect the angst that is directed to Aly also derives from a similar sentiment to that directed towards Goodes. Only in this case it is a Muslim who doesn't know his place.

[The Big Cat]

No worries. If we ever meet one day I'll yell and scream in your face and we'll see how you react okay? If someone's does that to me I'm either walking away or clobering them.

It wasn't done in a street. It was done as part of a celebration for indigenous round.

[stevoswan]

They weren't controversial. They were an uncomfortable truth that many people don't want to hear from a person they think doesn't know his place. Waleed Aly's summary was spot on, and I suspect the angst that is directed to Aly also derives from a similar sentiment to that directed towards Goodes. Only in this case it is a Muslim who doesn't know his place.

+1 ......Spot on but too close to the bone for some.....and they know who they are. The one's who cry 'it wasn't racism', 'I'm not a racist!' and who twist the facts to suit their pathetic weak argument and agenda. They expose themselves all the time.....and never learn anything.

[KSAS]

Professor from University of Sydney on his take of the Goodes booing & racism in Australia in reference to the Final Quarter documentary:

Tim Soutphommasane: The Final Quarter - YouTube