2021 trading, drafting and list management: players and personnel

[Ralph Dawg]

The logic surrounding giving / not giving games to players is mystifying sometimes, with #AliirAliirGate by far the most mystifying. I think there must be some defensive "non-negotiables" that players have to meet to get a game. I suspect that's part of the problem with Gould and AA, who is a better interceptor than 1 on 1 defender, and I believe will have a tougher time next year than he did this. But it is frustrating when we appear to choose not to use players in a way that maximise their strengths and focus too much on weaknesses.

The other point I wanted to make is that the need for tall defenders has changed drastically in the last 3-4 years. It wasn't that long ago that the Tigers were all-conquering using just Reiwoldt and the swarm of smalls. And Reg couldn't get a game as he had no one to play on. Now teams are playing much taller, there's 6-6-6 and the stand rule and you a need for 3 tall defenders who can actually defend.

The last 2 years have also been difficult as there hasn't really been a reserves competition. I suspect the match committee has taken the safe approach in picking more established players, albeit not quite suited to the KPD over taking a punt on one of young guys (Gould in particular), who is not necessarily ticking all the boxes at training but might actually go all right in a game. As a side note, I wonder if our young guys get towelled up by buddy at training, then are judged as not quite ready?

[Markwebbos]

The last 2 years have also been difficult as there hasn't really been a reserves competition. I suspect the match committee has taken the safe approach in picking more established players, albeit not quite suited to the KPD over taking a punt on one of young guys (Gould in particular), who is not necessarily ticking all the boxes at training but might actually go all right in a game. As a side note, I wonder if our young guys get towelled up by buddy at training, then are judged as not quite ready?

They have to pass the "Buddy test"?

[Mountain Man]

Gould and O'Connor are the 2 possible tall defenders that presumably you are thinking could have been worth "a punt" rather than games to "more established" players.

McCartin played 22 games and Rampe 20 in this season as the core defenders, with Brand playing 3 and Melican 6 - so there were opportunities if the game plan/match ups called for 3 tall defenders.

Fox and O'Riordan between them played 21 games as those mid 180 size defenders. Blakey also emerged as a "tall" during the season, (and indeed he is listed as 195 compared to McCartin at 193) but clearly no one would want him tied to a one-on-one defensive role.

Gould may be just not be able to play a flexible role in our game plan, or be a viable match up against most teams. He is 191 and 100kg and from what I have seen a bit slower than Melican. O'Connor is of course still pretty green to the game.

So, while I agree that the disruption to the 2nd tier games has deprived those 2 of development for 2 years, I don't think that "safe" selections have been the reason they have not yet played in the best 22.





I agree that the Brand recruitment was not a success, but he did only play 3 games and was not the reason Gould and O'Connor did not get games.

[Ralph Dawg]

Gould and O'Connor are the 2 possible tall defenders that presumably you are thinking could have been worth "a punt" rather than games to "more established" players.

McCartin played 22 games and Rampe 20 in this season as the core defenders, with Brand playing 3 and Melican 6 - so there were opportunities if the game plan/match ups called for 3 tall defenders.

Fox and O'Riordan between them played 21 games as those mid 180 size defenders. Blakey also emerged as a "tall" during the season, (and indeed he is listed as 195 compared to McCartin at 193) but clearly no one would want him tied to a one-on-one defensive role.

Gould may be just not be able to play a flexible role in our game plan, or be a viable match up against most teams. He is 191 and 100kg and from what I have seen a bit slower than Melican. O'Connor is of course still pretty green to the game.

So, while I agree that the disruption to the 2nd tier games has deprived those 2 of development for 2 years, I don't think that "safe" selections have been the reason they have not yet played in the best 22.





I agree that the Brand recruitment was not a success, but he did only play 3 games and was not the reason Gould and O'Connor did not get games.

I'm not really thinking about BOC for the last 2 seasons but reasonably optimistic about his prospects.
Re Gould, I would be interested to know what our exact intentions for him were when we used a relatively high pick to draft him. A few people here have said he's too short, too heavy and too slow. If that's the case, we should've delisted him.

My take on him differs to this line of thought. He had a good preseason, looked like he dropped kilos (to the naked eye, more 90kg than the listed 100kg) and in the few VFL games played, he looked good. He did a great job on Ratugolea, showing good strength and speed to handle a guy who eventually became the third tall for the Cats. I could see no harm in giving him a few games, especially the ones that Brand played. Brand was terrible, starting with his shocks v GC early in the season.

Likewise for Maibaum in his time with us. IMO an absolute travesty that he never even played a game, especially in 2020 (prior to his injury and death of his mother) when we virtually had no talls left. And before people make the statement about not gifting games, we did exactly that for guys like Zac Foot and Matt Ling in 2020.

I'm just hoping we can give a few guys a crack at the third tall position and identify a good one.

[rickmat]

RD, mate, couldn't agree with you more. Some of who you have mentioned didn't get a real go for whatever reason. Maibaum is one for sure. And I think Gould and O'Connor should be persisted with as the last 2 years have been an abberation due to Covid and no real season to hone their skills. O'Connor must have real determination to persist and hopefully comes back from Ireland when the training starts. And Gould has real potential and needs another good pre-season to show all RWO's and coaches the talent he has. I have a lot of time for both as they are young and our current defenders, other than Blakey and McCartin, are getting older.

[The Runner]

Key position is a really hard position to play at a young age. I'm fairly confident Gould will surprise a few this year.
Swing down to your local park footy oval for a game. 20 year olds don't compete physically with the 28 year olds.
Another pre season will do wonders for him.

[AB Swannie]

What is "a real go"? Giving a player a "go" who hasn't earned that "go" surely has the potential for disaster. Firstly, the team has a lower chance of winning that week. Imagine the uproar on here that would occur if we were to lose a close game when we didn't pick the best team and gave someone like Gould a "go". Secondly, the culture of a team will be quickly eroded if players are getting picked without merit.

Suffice to say that I'm in the camp that you pick the best team each week. If Will Gould does get to debut, he will have earned it and is best placed to perform well in that game and for the future.

[Auntie.Gerald]

Like any year it is so tricky as a supporter to evaluate the gaps vs what the coaching dept see

We all probably were pleasantly surprised by Hickey, Gulden, Campbell, Warner, McInerney, Wicks etc progressing faster than expected as AFL players..............6 players surprising is a lot in a team of 22.........a tipping point some might say.

I honestly did not think we could make top6 in 2021 and I kicked and screamed that we should seriously consider a trade to get another senior dominant player to the club...........that strategy may have got us into the top4 ironically........... but we will see if we can go again while we have Bud and Kennedy in the stable and contributing to a 2022 top4

I have a sneaky feeling that Mills and Heeney will be quite a force actually in the mids.........i remember watching them together in a State game where Heeney got a knock to the head early and Mills just went to a relentless level. in activity and dominance...........They could genuinely become hunting machines at a top level in 2022.

Mills like Hodge in his early career able to shift between a spare in defence when needed for matchups and mids.........same again Heeney 30% forward like a Dangerfield with impact that matches probably his goals this season at 70/30 Forward Mid

[Ralph Dawg]

What is "a real go"? Giving a player a "go" who hasn't earned that "go" surely has the potential for disaster. Firstly, the team has a lower chance of winning that week. Imagine the uproar on here that would occur if we were to lose a close game when we didn't pick the best team and gave someone like Gould a "go". Secondly, the culture of a team will be quickly eroded if players are getting picked without merit.

Suffice to say that I'm in the camp that you pick the best team each week. If Will Gould does get to debut, he will have earned it and is best placed to perform well in that game and for the future.

I agree to a point. However I think it's very rare that on a week by week basis, there is a clear best 22. There might be a best 18-20 with a couple of positions in dispute. Let's take the third tall defender as the example. In my opinion, I just can't see Brand being clearly better than Gould or Maibaum or even BOC. Brand is terrible and contributed significantly to 2 or our losses. So if it's tight between Brand and the others, it makes more sense to me to pick the guys with more upside. Taking this further, if Brand is that much better and / or has more upside, then it makes no sense to re-sign Gould or BOC.

[rickmat]

AB, only give a player a game if they deserve it, I agree. But we have lost a few because they played in Reserves for 2 to 3 years without being given a run in the seniors. Dawson played 3 seasons in reserves before he scored a real go in tge seniors. Players like Gould and Stephens and others have had 2 years that you woukd wish on your enemy and perhaps this has impacted tgeir progression, O'Connor also has been impacted

[AB Swannie]

AB, only give a player a game if they deserve it, I agree. But we have lost a few because they played in Reserves for 2 to 3 years without being given a run in the seniors. Dawson played 3 seasons in reserves before he scored a real go in tge seniors. Players like Gould and Stephens and others have had 2 years that you woukd wish on your enemy and perhaps this has impacted tgeir progression, O'Connor also has been impacted

Dawson leaving has nothing to do with this debate. There is no evidence that he left due to him being played in the reserves for so long. In fact, you could just as easily argue that he has become the player he has because of the tough love he received in his early years.

If Gould and BOC are good enough, they will be given their chance. Just like all the other young guys who have played over the last few years.

[rickmat]

I didn't say that Dawson left because of that, but he had to wait 3 seasons before he played regularly in the seniors. My point is that players have to given time to develop and unfortunately Gould , Stephens and O'Connor are just 3 caught up in the Covid years. And this is not a debate, it's my thoughts on this forum

[AppleCore]

What is "a real go"? Giving a player a "go" who hasn't earned that "go" surely has the potential for disaster. Firstly, the team has a lower chance of winning that week. Imagine the uproar on here that would occur if we were to lose a close game when we didn't pick the best team and gave someone like Gould a "go". Secondly, the culture of a team will be quickly eroded if players are getting picked without merit.

Suffice to say that I'm in the camp that you pick the best team each week. If Will Gould does get to debut, he will have earned it and is best placed to perform well in that game and for the future.

Although the club is primarily aiming to pick the "best" side each week, it also has to make selections with an eye to the future. If there is little prospect of younger players getting a game in the seniors, then this becomes an inducement for them to look elsewhere and, potentially even worse, it risks a situation where several senior players leave the club and there are only inexperienced players available as replacements.

[Markwebbos]

I thought I’d throw a small bomb into this thread. Herald Sun have created their own top ten for every draft of the last decade. 2020 they’ve given 1 to E Gulden

2018 no spot for Blakey but Sir James at number 10.

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[dejavoodoo44]

I thought I’d throw a small bomb into this thread. Herald Sun have created their own top ten for every draft of the last decade. 2020 they’ve given 1 to E Gulden

2018 no spot for Blakey but Sir James at number 10.

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While it's nice that Errol is number one, I think most people would quite rightly reckon that it's too early to judge that draft. Around about 10 seems appropriate for Rowbottom. Blakey not making the top ten is mildly controversial. If it's judged on the whole period of time, then it's fair enough. However, now that he seems to have found his position, he should become one of the genuine stars of the competition. The way he hits the ball at pace, cuts through the opposition lines and generally finds targets; means that he should make plenty of game winning contributions in the future.