Swans v Suns: Round 6.

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  • O'Reilly Boy
    Warming the Bench
    • Feb 2014
    • 474

    Melican was at his best three or four seasons ago when he seemed to be taking up the Marty Mattner-type role, often as a spare and a run-off player as much as a man-on-man defender. Our back half set-up has changed considerably over the past couple of seasons, and has not settled into the kind of cohesive whole-more-than-the-sum-of-its-parts units to which we have been accustomed.

    I was concerned that we went into the GC game considerably undermanned in defence—McCartin and Campbell out, and only Brand in—which meant that we had no designated defence rotation (I didn't see the warm-ups where you usually get a a sense of how the lines are being set up). This lead me to wonder whether Mills was going to move back, but that didn't seem to happen.

    So we were already down a defender going in: Melican, Brand, Hewitt, Lloyd, Cunningham, and Dawson. Hewitt is not really a key defender, as we know: more a mid/tagger. Cunningham offers run, Dawson kicking accuracy, and Lloyd distributing strengths. Once Hewitt went out, we were down to two larger bodies (Melican and Brand), neither of whom have had much match time in recent years, and four smaller bodies, some of whom were having bad days. No wonder they looked in disarray.

    Once the 45 inside kick was denied (by a mixture of GC filling space, as Essendon and Giants had done and the subsequent unforced errors), the team seemed to stop moving: nothing from behind the ball to set anything up by hand or running through the corridor, and nothing ahead of the ball in the way of leads or decoys. Handball chains ran out of receivers, or handballs were going to static players in worse positions that those dishing it off. Reid was having an off-day, so our Plan B options along the line (where he has been clunking them recently) were limited. We ended up with no controlled transition at all: just bombs into attacking 50. To blame the lack of forward defence pressure as the ball came back out so quickly I think misses the point that the entries were so terrible, with very few kicks to advantage. And GC were a bit harder at it, for sure.

    I liked Kennedy's game, a lot of Warner, and thought Florent found the ball, space, and at least changed the angles a bit. Sinclair really struggled, and while Parker was tireless, he was either getting little voice from his team-mates, or has lost a half metre in pace, and seemed to get caught holding the ball a little bit too often. Rowbottom looked underdone, and Heeney probably shouldn't have played. Gulden was pretty much unsighted.

    Comment

    • stevoswan
      Veterans List
      • Sep 2014
      • 8573

      Originally posted by TheBloods
      Define 'minority' ?? Maybe on RWO to not rate RB is a minority opinion but hes not rated that highly outside of the supporter base. We all want every swans player to be a superstar but reality is very few if any will be. Most neutrals see him for what he is - a decent kid with the potential to be good. Nothing more. He doesnt have the talent of Chad, Gulden, Jmac, Dawson, Mcdonald .. these kids have the makings of elite players and you wont hear a single Swans supporter or neutral alike question them. Their ability speaks for itself and you can have patience with them and ride their ups and downs. The less capable players like Rowbottom , Mclean Melican have to hit the ground running harder to make more of an impact and when they dont they open themselves to criticism. Thats not my opinion or exclusive to this forum, its just a fact. Might not be fair but thats the way it is
      Would love to see the public evidence beyond your opinion to back up this claim of 'fact'. You'd go well on Sky News, where opinion and fact are conveniently melded into the same.....when clearly they are not. Time will tell whether your opinion is actually compatible with fact.

      Comment

      • bloodspirit
        Clubman
        • Apr 2015
        • 4448

        Originally posted by MattW
        Hate is a bit strong, mate.
        Fair enough but you get the point. Will you settle for "disapprobation"?
        All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated, and well supported in logic and argument than others. -Douglas Adams, author (11 Mar 1952-2001)

        Comment

        • Ludwig
          Veterans List
          • Apr 2007
          • 9359

          Originally posted by gloveski
          And that’s my point to be elite that’s what he will have to do .He is no Dusty . Good player but not Elite . For us to go forward a player like Rowbottom has to become Elite . He’s not dynamic enough to influence a game unless he becomes a high posy mid . I’m not writing him off by all means


          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
          Originally posted by Captain
          Couldn’t agree more. Elite players help win premierships, not mediocre ones.

          Comment

          • MattW
            Veterans List
            • May 2011
            • 4232

            Originally posted by bloodspirit
            Fair enough but you get the point. Will you settle for "disapprobation"?
            Might be too strong too, because I don't think these comments are directed at him personally. He seems a nice guy.

            For me, it's about coming to the realisation that he's not going to be a winning fullback or CHB. He concedes too much on the lead (particularly) and in one-on-one contests.

            I think O'Reilly Boy put it well - his strength is more as a third tall.

            So, with that realisation is the connected realisation that we're a bit light on for defensive talls. It's very interesting and telling that they are playing Paddy McCartin in defence. Hopefully that turns out.

            Comment

            • stevoswan
              Veterans List
              • Sep 2014
              • 8573

              Originally posted by Ludwig
              +1

              - - - Updated - - -

              Originally posted by Captain
              Couldn’t agree more. Elite players help win premierships, not mediocre ones.
              From our 2012 Premiership winning team could you please list who you believed were elite.....oh wait, from your reckoning above......that would be the entire team.

              Sorry, don't worry then.....

              Comment

              • TheBloods
                Suspended by the MRP
                • Feb 2020
                • 2047

                Originally posted by mcs
                As always, you define everything in absolutes when like everything else you say it is solely your opinion. I'd be very intrigued how you objectively define 'capable player' or 'talent' in any shape or form that allows for objective comparisons to be made between players, beyond your views of the world you like to portray as 'fact'. They are purely subjective measures, which make them nothing but opinion by definition.

                And as always you continue to apply one set of rules to players you like, another altogether to those you don't..... somehow players that have to 'work harder to make more of an impact' are open to constant criticism (or in your case - continual roasting), but those blessed by a wannabe football deity are given a free reign because we are commanded to 'have patience with them'.

                Perfectly illustrated by the fact there hasn't be a peep from you about how relatively anonymous one of your favourites has been in the last fortnight, nor about how ordinary the ball use has been by another of them. But if someone not on the 'free pass' list makes a mistake, its off to the guillotine with them.....
                Ok then can you give me one thing he has that will make him elite ? Anything at all thats a superb talent of his . Hes good at tackling but thats defensive not a natural quality. So what else ?? He doesnt have leg speed, he's not a good kick like Jmac, he cant shark taps, he isnt able to burst away from stoppages like Chad, he fumbles the ball on the ground. I question if he sees the game very well at all as he doesnt seem to get to the right places. Frustrating how often he ends up running into the place where the ball doesnt end up going vs Chad who seems to always know where the ball will be and gets himself to those spots.

                Before you jump down my throat about roasting and hating him i only bring it up so much as i feel it is a wasted spot in the team to have a key role like an inside mid going to someone who doesnt offer many positives in that role . I would prefer to see what someone else could do. However i am not writing RB's career off. I dont see much of a future for him as an inside mid who can win clearances etc. But i could see a role for him in the team still. In Hewett's absence i would try him as a tagger. The only standout part of his game is his tackling and pressure acts , he leads the club in both areas. He could put those strengths to best use in a defensive role and we could try someone else in his current role who offers more offensively

                Comment

                • Captain
                  Captain of the Side
                  • Feb 2004
                  • 3602

                  Originally posted by longmile
                  Blakey reminds me of Rohan. Does a couple of good things and goes missing. Hope to be proven wrong and he can live up to his talent
                  Rohan has been a pretty good player, just not in finals!

                  I think a big problem with Blakey is that he doesn't really have a position. He was drafted as a key forward, then talked about as a wingman, then was tried as an inside midfielder and is now also pinch hitting in the ruck.

                  I would like him to settle down as either a forward or midfielder and learn his craft there.

                  Comment

                  • mcs
                    Travelling Swannie!!
                    • Jul 2007
                    • 8177

                    Originally posted by TheBloods
                    Ok then can you give me one thing he has that will make him elite ? Anything at all thats a superb talent of his . Hes good at tackling but thats defensive not a natural quality. So what else ?? He doesnt have leg speed, he's not a good kick like Jmac, he cant shark taps, he isnt able to burst away from stoppages like Chad, he fumbles the ball on the ground. I question if he sees the game very well at all as he doesnt seem to get to the right places. Frustrating how often he ends up running into the place where the ball doesnt end up going vs Chad who seems to always know where the ball will be and gets himself to those spots.

                    Before you jump down my throat about roasting and hating him i only bring it up so much as i feel it is a wasted spot in the team to have a key role like an inside mid going to someone who doesnt offer many positives in that role . I would prefer to see what someone else could do. However i am not writing RB's career off. I dont see much of a future for him as an inside mid who can win clearances etc. But i could see a role for him in the team still. In Hewett's absence i would try him as a tagger. The only standout part of his game is his tackling and pressure acts , he leads the club in both areas. He could put those strengths to best use in a defensive role and we could try someone else in his current role who offers more offensively
                    The question had zero to do with your perennial criticism target. Was simply a genuine question of how you can claim to objectively measure 'talent' or 'capability' of a player - your the one claiming 'facts' about things that are purely subjective and opinion based, not I.
                    "You get the feeling that like Monty Python's Black Knight, the Swans would regard amputation as merely a flesh wound."

                    Comment

                    • barracuda
                      Regular in the Side
                      • Jun 2016
                      • 551

                      Originally posted by TheBloods
                      Ok then can you give me one thing he has that will make him elite ? Anything at all thats a superb talent of his . Hes good at tackling but thats defensive not a natural quality. So what else ?? He doesnt have leg speed, he's not a good kick like Jmac, he cant shark taps, he isnt able to burst away from stoppages like Chad, he fumbles the ball on the ground. I question if he sees the game very well at all as he doesnt seem to get to the right places. Frustrating how often he ends up running into the place where the ball doesnt end up going vs Chad who seems to always know where the ball will be and gets himself to those spots.

                      Before you jump down my throat about roasting and hating him i only bring it up so much as i feel it is a wasted spot in the team to have a key role like an inside mid going to someone who doesnt offer many positives in that role . I would prefer to see what someone else could do. However i am not writing RB's career off. I dont see much of a future for him as an inside mid who can win clearances etc. But i could see a role for him in the team still. In Hewett's absence i would try him as a tagger. The only standout part of his game is his tackling and pressure acts , he leads the club in both areas. He could put those strengths to best use in a defensive role and we could try someone else in his current role who offers more offensively
                      I think there are worse players. For example Hayward and Blakey. Both have had significant numbers of patient games to get going but have still failed to launch. Hayward's best game ever was two weeks ago, and it took him 70 to get there. Amazingly in 70 games he has never hit 100 in Fantasy points. I know they don't mean everything, but you would think in 70 games somewhere it would all fall into place.

                      Comment

                      • snajik
                        Senior Player
                        • Jan 2003
                        • 1115

                        Originally posted by MattW
                        Might be too strong too, because I don't think these comments are directed at him personally. He seems a nice guy.

                        For me, it's about coming to the realisation that he's not going to be a winning fullback or CHB. He concedes too much on the lead (particularly) and in one-on-one contests.

                        I think O'Reilly Boy put it well - his strength is more as a third tall.

                        So, with that realisation is the connected realisation that we're a bit light on for defensive talls. It's very interesting and telling that they are playing Paddy McCartin in defence. Hopefully that turns out.
                        I'm guessing O'Reilly Boy will send any royalties my way.
                        It's very hard to live in a studio apartment in San Jose with a man who's learning to play violin. That's what she told the police when she handed them the empty revolver.
                        The Scarlatti Tilt - Richard Brautigan

                        Comment

                        • mcs
                          Travelling Swannie!!
                          • Jul 2007
                          • 8177

                          Originally posted by stevoswan
                          +1

                          - - - Updated - - -



                          From our 2012 Premiership winning team could you please list who you believed were elite.....oh wait, from your reckoning above......that would be the entire team.

                          Sorry, don't worry then.....
                          I actually don't believe that elite players win premierships and mediocre ones don't. I actually think its much more nuanced then that. Elite players no doubt help teams win premierships, and in 99% of cases you need a reasonable proportion of 'elite' talent - whatever way you actually seek to define that in an objective measure.

                          But in a lot of grand finals (at least the close ones), while a moment here or there from an elite player may be what swings a contest (think Goodes on 1 leg in 2012), it is often the more 'run of the mill' players that have the key impact on the overall outcome and are the difference between the sides.

                          Because you are ultimately only as good as your weakest links out there - the old adage of the importance of the bottom 6. In a salary cap constrained sport, where you simply can't have a team full of elite players, I think it remains as important as ever. Elite players are an essential ingredient to success, sure. But having a balanced squad where the bottom end of the team (in terms of output/performance/whatever measure you want) is able to perform when it matters is just as important. Both our '05 and '12 premiership sides are great examples of that - I'd argue West Coast and Hawthorn both have plenty more established 'elite' talent then we did. But we had the better 'teams' on the day because our bottom ends of the 22 were better on the day.
                          "You get the feeling that like Monty Python's Black Knight, the Swans would regard amputation as merely a flesh wound."

                          Comment

                          • snajik
                            Senior Player
                            • Jan 2003
                            • 1115

                            1986, 1987 being examples of elite talent not getting us over the line. One of my favourite clichés - 'a champion team will always beat a team of champions.'
                            It's very hard to live in a studio apartment in San Jose with a man who's learning to play violin. That's what she told the police when she handed them the empty revolver.
                            The Scarlatti Tilt - Richard Brautigan

                            Comment

                            • bloodspirit
                              Clubman
                              • Apr 2015
                              • 4448

                              Originally posted by TheBloods
                              Ok then can you give me one thing he has that will make him elite ? Anything at all thats a superb talent of his . Hes good at tackling but thats defensive not a natural quality. So what else ?? He doesnt have leg speed, he's not a good kick like Jmac, he cant shark taps, he isnt able to burst away from stoppages like Chad, he fumbles the ball on the ground. I question if he sees the game very well at all as he doesnt seem to get to the right places. Frustrating how often he ends up running into the place where the ball doesnt end up going vs Chad who seems to always know where the ball will be and gets himself to those spots.

                              Before you jump down my throat about roasting and hating him i only bring it up so much as i feel it is a wasted spot in the team to have a key role like an inside mid going to someone who doesnt offer many positives in that role . I would prefer to see what someone else could do. However i am not writing RB's career off. I dont see much of a future for him as an inside mid who can win clearances etc. But i could see a role for him in the team still. In Hewett's absence i would try him as a tagger. The only standout part of his game is his tackling and pressure acts , he leads the club in both areas. He could put those strengths to best use in a defensive role and we could try someone else in his current role who offers more offensively
                              First, I don't get this obsession with 'elite' - not every player in the best 22 has to be - or can be - "elite". Otherwise they wouldn't be exceptional, they'd be like all the others. As far as I'm concerned, Rowbottom is in his 3rd season and doing more than enough to warrant his spot on the list and also in the best 22, especially last year. I am optimistic he can continue to improve and, as we previously discussed, best case scenario eventually be one of the best 40 players in the comp. That is enough for me. If he can do that, I'll be rapt. I love his character and personality and I'm very happy with what he brings to the team and the club for the time being.

                              Second, how do you justify jumping from pointing out that Rowbottom is not 'elite', to then saying "it is a wasted spot in the team"? That is not logical. There is a fair gap between those two things that you are ignoring. We don't have an elite player ready to fill that role in his place. As I said earlier, and as mcs has offered also, not everyone can be elite, and you need a strong team. To say he "doesn't offer many positives" is going too far and leads to others labelling your posts "vindictive" etc.
                              All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated, and well supported in logic and argument than others. -Douglas Adams, author (11 Mar 1952-2001)

                              Comment

                              • Bexl
                                Regular in the Side
                                • Jan 2003
                                • 817

                                Originally posted by royboy42
                                HMOG, can we drop off RB for a while? He's a pretty good player trying to improve himself. And that's enough for me.
                                Enough of this petty hate fest.
                                I've said it before but I'll say it again I don't read the Bloods comments because he just hangs @@@@ on RB to get a response I suggest you ignore him.

                                Comment

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