2025 List Management

[Roadrunner]

If you read what I actually wrote, it was that we should trade out/retire these players if we don't think we're capable of contending in the next few seasons. The 'if' was intentionally doing a lot of work there. The suggestion of trading out Heeney and Papley was intended to emphasise the non-applicability of the 'if' clause.

Yes, I understood that “if” Liz. But seriously, barring another horror run of injuries, our team is good enough to contend. After all, we finished minor premiers last year playing some terrific football. We do have some weaknesses and hopefully they can be addressed by a couple of astute trades and draft picks. Grundy has at least another couple of years judging by his form lately. Paps had a horrid run of injuries and Heeney has had another outstanding year. Our young players can and should improve next year and our older guys like Ramps and Harry are still playing good footy. My only concern is Lloydy as I think his form has been poor. We’ve missed Logan and Joel in our forward line but hopefully next year we will see them play regularly. The player we missed the most is Paddy as we haven’t been able to adequately replace him, though Hamling has played a few really good games before his injury- but we do need an upgrade there. And of course we’ve missed Parks- his toughness and forward play.

Bottom line: we should never trade Paps or Heens Liz- there can be no “if” ever!

[liz]

Yes, I understood that “if” Liz. But seriously, barring another horror run of injuries, our team is good enough to contend. After all, we finished minor premiers last year playing some terrific football. We do have some weaknesses and hopefully they can be addressed by a couple of astute trades and draft picks. Grundy has at least another couple of years judging by his form lately. Paps had a horrid run of injuries and Heeney has had another outstanding year. Our young players can and should improve next year and our older guys like Ramps and Harry are still playing good footy. My only concern is Lloydy as I think his form has been poor. We’ve missed Logan and Joel in our forward line but hopefully next year we will see them play regularly. The player we missed the most is Paddy as we haven’t been able to adequately replace him, though Hamling has played a few really good games before his injury- but we do need an upgrade there. And of course we’ve missed Parks- his toughness and forward play.

Bottom line: we should never trade Paps or Heens Liz- there can be no “if” ever!

Still not sure you get my point. I was trying to say "of course we should view ourselves as contending", using the provocative suggestion of trading out Heeney and Papley if we think we aren't.

And because we have to think we are contending, we should be looking to bolster our "right now" squad right now, even if it costs us securing every academy 18yo who might be available this year.

[Roadrunner]

Still not sure you get my point. I was trying to say "of course we should view ourselves as contending", using the provocative suggestion of trading out Heeney and Papley if we think we aren't.

And because we have to think we are contending, we should be looking to bolster our "right now" squad right now, even if it costs us securing every academy 18yo who might be available this year.

Ok Liz-I’m happy now! I get your point. It’s only because I can never contemplate trading out those two, no matter the circumstances! I understand where you’re coming from and let’s hope our Academy picks will become our future stars.

[Auntie.Gerald]

For me another finals ready Key Defender is ........... the KEY

[BRS328]

Priority has to be the Academy, a Key Defender and a the health of our fwds.

Im scared of the Alir Trade or the Ladhams Trade where we get screwed.

Can’t agree you on this. I believe a key forward is the first priority. The current defence set against Brisbane was very good last week and the primary reason we won the game. The club have very high hopes for Will Edwards who had a season ruined by injury. At 197cm and 22 years old it has to be now or never.
I would also like to see Hamling retained for one more year as he showed very good defensive skills prior to his injury.
The forward line was decimated this year with only one recognised player (Hayward) playing most games. This is where the depth is very limited, and I am yet to be convinced that Buller is the answer. He looked totally lost against Andrews last Saturday. Buller may be a possibility as a defender

[UUaswan]

Can’t agree you on this. I believe a key forward is the first priority. The current defence set against Brisbane was very good last week and the primary reason we won the game. The club have very high hopes for Will Edwards who had a season ruined by injury. At 197cm and 22 years old it has to be now or never.
I would also like to see Hamling retained for one more year as he showed very good defensive skills prior to his injury.
The forward line was decimated this year with only one recognised player (Hayward) playing most games. This is where the depth is very limited, and I am yet to be convinced that Buller is the answer. He looked totally lost against Andrews last Saturday. Buller may be a possibility as a defender

I think we have enough Fwds if fit.

The same limited durability of our fwds can be said about our defenders with Melican and Tom Mc

Melican has only played more than 10 games twice in 5yrs and Tom is a decent bump away from a 6 week spell, best case.
Ive said before with Ramps about his age, we have not had good luck with champions going that extra year, JK, Mcveigh,Buddy,ROk etc

So yeah we are vulnerable down back while hoping an untried VFL Defender comes thru, thats why a KPD should be our focus

As for fwds, who is out there that we could get and not get screwed with trade ? More the point, who is worth it.
Look at the Comp for Full Fwds, there is Cameron, Darcy, Hogan than daylight. No one realistically available is much of an upgrade on the 40 goals fwds we have.

Curnow kicked 80, 3 yrs ago and is tied up for 4yrs
This is the first time in 5 yrs Tilthorpe has kicked more than 20 goals
Josh Treacey is the next best thing and he has never kicked 50

We have Joel who kicked 43 as 24yr old and Logan kicked 37 as a 22 yr old while playing fwd to the highest scoring midfield ever.

We need health up fwd, not new players

[Nico]

I read where Callum Wilkie from St Kilda is unhappy and open to moving. Just the person to bolster our defence. This $1.7 milion for TDK is already causing issues. I'd be surprised if we haven't already spoken to him given we have openly said we are in the market for an established player and cashed up.

[UUaswan]

I read where Callum Wilkie from St Kilda is unhappy and open to moving. Just the person to bolster our defence. This $1.7 milion for TDK is already causing issues. I'd be surprised if we haven't already spoken to him given we have openly said we are in the market for an established player and cashed up.

Hearing mixed, I think he would be a tough get.
Was in the top 3 CHB in the comp a year ago.
Big money and big at the trade table.

Lever to me is a better option, would be more likely on both fronts

Or go after one of the Adelaide young tall defenders or see if GWS Aleer wants to stay in Sydney

[BRS328]

I think we have enough Fwds if fit.

The same limited durability of our fwds can be said about our defenders with Melican and Tom Mc

Melican has only played more than 10 games twice in 5yrs and Tom is a decent bump away from a 6 week spell, best case.
Ive said before with Ramps about his age, we have not had good luck with champions going that extra year, JK, Mcveigh,Buddy,ROk etc

So yeah we are vulnerable down back while hoping an untried VFL Defender comes thru, thats why a KPD should be our focus

As for fwds, who is out there that we could get and not get screwed with trade ? More the point, who is worth it.
Look at the Comp for Full Fwds, there is Cameron, Darcy, Hogan than daylight. No one realistically available is much of an upgrade on the 40 goals fwds we have.

Curnow kicked 80, 3 yrs ago and is tied up for 4yrs
This is the first time in 5 yrs Tilthorpe has kicked more than 20 goals
Josh Treacey is the next best thing and he has never kicked 50

We have Joel who kicked 43 as 24yr old and Logan kicked 37 as a 22 yr old while playing fwd to the highest scoring midfield ever.

We need health up fwd, not new players

Let’s agree to disagree on a couple of things.
The main reason Melican was not getting a game was because he was considered depth only until halfway through the 2023 season when he broke into the senior team and has been a regular ever since.
I would not rule out Curnow at this stage. There are discussions going on behind closed doors at all clubs, including the Swans, with current contracted players. Anything is possible.
Agree with you on your comments about Logan, but I am concerned about the durability of Armartey. He certainly can play when fit, but continues to have ongoing issues, particularly with hamstrings.
Let’s face it, we were very lucky to win last Saturday with a makeshift forward line. Papley was the only recognised forward in the team when you take out Logan, Joel and Hayward, and you have to give credit to the coach for the game plan against a very good team.

[UUaswan]

Let’s agree to disagree on a couple of things.
The main reason Melican was not getting a game was because he was considered depth only until halfway through the 2023 season when he broke into the senior team and has been a regular ever since.
I would not rule out Curnow at this stage. There are discussions going on behind closed doors at all clubs, including the Swans, with current contracted players. Anything is possible.
Agree with you on your comments about Logan, but I am concerned about the durability of Armartey. He certainly can play when fit, but continues to have ongoing issues, particularly with hamstrings.
Let’s face it, we were very lucky to win last Saturday with a makeshift forward line. Papley was the only recognised forward in the team when you take out Logan, Joel and Hayward, and you have to give credit to the coach for the game plan against a very good team.

Agree it was a makeshift Fwd line and we did very well but ........ we also had a game from Heeney that allows things to look alot rosier than they actually were, alot like last year.

Like you my biggest concern is Amartey but he is worth trying to get right for another year, hopefully alongside Logan.

If that fails, then all options should be on the table

[BRS328]

Agree it was a makeshift Fwd line and we did very well but ........ we also had a game from Heeney that allows things to look alot rosier than they actually were, alot like last year.

Like you my biggest concern is Amartey but he is worth trying to get right for another year, hopefully alongside Logan.

If that fails, then all options should be on the table

He is contracted, so he will be there anyway. It is his durability that l worry about. Maybe a full preseason will help. I have often thought that the grand final teams are at a disadvantage in terms of preparation for the next season because they are 6 weeks behind most teams because of the Players Association requirement that they have two months leave

[liz]

A couple of weeks ago, David King (who sometimes seems very insightful in his comments and sometimes seems to be spouting half-formed ideas) was critical of our play for being too safe, too conservative. I can't recall exactly which game gave rise to this comment. Possibly the Saints game, given weather conditions made the Essendon game hard to dissect. King suggested that our plodding, boring style reflected Cox's desire to protect our backline. King had, in his miind at least, that our backline was weak, needed protection, and therefore we needed to make sure we didn't turn over the ball in dangerous spots.

When he was passing comment on our performance against the Lions, he was fullsome in his praise of how our backline performed (without refering his comments from a couple of weeks ago).

I guess it's possible for both to be valid comments, especially if the former of the two games was one where we were without TMac. I also don't know if King had any basis for attributing our "safe" approach to that former game to Cox's fear of our backline's capability, or if King was just retrofitting.

But whether King's observations were fair / accurate / relevant in the context of the actual game that gave rise to them (or applied to the Swans more generally), they did highlight the fact that when a team is secure in its back half, and has sound defensive structures and methods across the ground, it can afford to take more risks in how it moves the ball when it is in possession. So I am persuaded that if a club needs to bolster its talls, it should first look to the back half.

Further evidence of this can be gleaned from how we played last year. We were the highest scoring team by some margin for most of the year. The Lions might have eventually kicked more goals than us, courtesy of an extra finals game, but no-one could question our scoring capacity. And that was achieved without any star key forwards. It was exciting, risk-taking ball movement, combined with a good forward method (and a couple of very talented mids who could hit the scoreboard).

This year has been a bit different in that we've not had McDonald and barely had Amartey. Papley's also been missing (or below optimum fitness) for most of the season. But hypothetically, a forward line next year where our key pieces are present more often than not, should be able to reproduce our scoring power of 2024 so long as the rest of the pieces are in place around the ground. In some ways we're better off if we re-sign Buller in that we can pick three from four so-so tall forwards. If a top-notch forward were available, I'd have no problem with the club pursuing them, but I don't see that much value in addiing another so-so forward.

Our backline has been similarly inflicted by regular absences. When the first picked pieces are in place, things generally look grand. But, while up forward, a team can improvise a bit when pieces are missing, stability and predictibility are more crucial down back. Like others, I worry about the regular availability of McCartin and the age of Rampe. We do have three young, developing key defenders but we'd have to be very optimistic to think any of them will fill a key defensive role next season. It could happen, but there's scant evidence at the moment that it will.

Our chances of finding an experienced player to bolster our key defensive posts is higher than finding a star at the other end, mostly because the defender doesn't need to be a star. Defence is more about discipline and system than individual brilliance. We also have more list flexibility in defence in the sense that, if we can find a really solid addition, we can jettison the list fillers / depth (Hamling, Francis) or pension off Rampe. Or we can play an extra tall and change Blakey's role so that he never has to be accountable for tall forwards and can be a purely attacking weapon.

Occasionally I allow myself to fantasize that Connor O'Sullivan will decide that cows and paddocks are no longer for him, and he'd love to play at the club he supported as a boy. Sadly, that will probably remain a fantasy. Getting someone like Wilkie might function as a cold shower.

[imuninformedtwo]

I agree with the sentiment of all that.

But re King and his observations, I think he’s wrong on what’s happened this year. One - we simply had so much dysfunction in terms of personnel, particularly in the first half of the year, our ability to move the ball efficiently and seamlessly just wasn’t there. Two - my observation on what Cox is trying to do with our game plan is a bit different to what King thinks.

I reckon Cox felt, correctly, our game plan was a bit unsustainable. He’s tried to level up our ability to win contests and clearances, where we’ve been traditionally poor, and get a better full ground defence. You can take that too far, like Carlton does because it’s good at just one thing and then can’t kick, or stifle your ball movement completely, a la St Kilda, who’ll become even more unwatchable when Nas walks. But it ultimately allows you to turn the ball over in better spots on the ground and then transition. What we did so well last week against Brisbane was press up hard in defence, and rather than scoop up the ball deep inside our defensive 50, we turned the ball over between half back and centre, and then pounced the other way.

Ironically, the two games this year where we had the best balance in our game were the first halves vs GWS and the Suns. It was the collapse in the second half that were deeply problematic and the ability of sides to get a run on against us is still a big weakness.

It’s taken some time but we’re getting there on game plan. And I reckon there should be confidence that with a full preseason under Cox, a strengthened coaching panel and a fitter list (touch wood), we will really start to nail it next year.

[KSAS]

Good discussion points re game plan, injury list and defence structure. I for one have moved from a KPF to a KPD being our no. 1 priority, due to our personnel being more vulnerable in that area in comparison as Liz highlighted above.

Thr old adage of defence wins premierships still holds true today.

I for one hope we're sniffing for quality KPDs who might be gettable in the likes of Lever and Aleer.

I think Rampe has shown enough he can go another year, but we also need good quality general defenders. Bice was a revelation early in the season and hope he can find consistency next year. Same with Roberts who had looked so promising.

Wicks has been the biggest revelation being re-invented as a rebounding small defender. Maybe one of our KPFs can do the same, with Logan being the most equipped to do so?

[BRS328]

Good discussion points re game plan, injury list and defence structure. I for one have moved from a KPF to a KPD being our no. 1 priority, due to our personnel being more vulnerable in that area in comparison as Liz highlighted above.

Thr old adage of defence wins premierships still holds true today.

I for one hope we're sniffing for quality KPDs who might be gettable in the likes of Lever and Aleer.

I think Rampe has shown enough he can go another year, but we also need good quality general defenders. Bice was a revelation early in the season and hope he can find consistency next year. Same with Roberts who had looked so promising.

Wicks has been the biggest revelation being re-invented as a rebounding small defender. Maybe one of our KPFs can do the same, with Logan being the most equipped to do so?

Not sure about Robert’s unless he can improve his disposal dramatically. There is no doubt that he can get the ball, but his kicking lacks penetration and invariably results in a turnover. He does have time on his side.