2018 trading, drafting and list management: players and personnel

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  • liz
    Veteran
    Site Admin
    • Jan 2003
    • 16737

    Originally posted by barry
    Teams that would want them are ones who need the points for a father son or academy pickup.

    If you take out the trades, rookies, father-son, academy, zone or any other draft concession types, you'll find slim picking in the late 30's and above.
    None of those players I listed was a zone selection nor a FS (*). Current day FS and academy selections are bid upon where other clubs feel they sit in the pecking order, so if they're taken after wherever the "useful cut-off" is, they're still taken with later picks. And since the rookie draft comes at the end of the national draft, any player taken in the rookie draft is, by definition, a late draft pick.

    The reason why the hit rate looks a bit higher from the rookie draft than the later rounds of the ND is purely a numbers game - ie clubs will typically take two or three players in the 3rd or later rounds of the national draft, but then might load up half a dozen or more rookies. Clubs need to churn through a fair number of players to find those who have what it takes to play senior AFL, so if you're churning through twice as many players via the rookie system as you are the later picks in the ND, in pure number terms you may uncover more rookies who last.

    But clubs also have to churn through players taken earlier in the draft. There's no threshold where the likelihood of finding a good player suddenly drops off - or if there is, it's somewhere well within the top 10 picks. Johnston, DOK, Willougby, Towers, Lamb, Vezspremi and hosts of others taken by other clubs are testament to that.

    In terms of clubs needing points, those who expect to have players bid upon in the first 20 or so picks have already shuffled their picks and points around. North and the Pies look a bit light on for points (but only marginally so) but neither holds a pick in the 20s. The one exception is the Bulldogs, who currently hold pick 27, likely to be pick 29-30 after earlier academy bids. They may see an advantage in trading that pick for a couple of ours that give them more points to match a bid on West. But I suspect a number of clubs will have their eye on that pick, and the Dogs may land up trading it down before draft night. As the Mase pointed out a week or so ago, the biggest value to the Swans comes in waiting until after Blakey has been drafted before trading up.

    The cost of matching bids later in the draft isn't that high, and I reckon most, if not all, clubs will reckon they can easily match with what they have and won't see the need to trade down any picks in the 20s or 30s.

    (*) One did slip onto my list, Naismith. But he's the only one.

    Comment

    • Ludwig
      Veterans List
      • Apr 2007
      • 9359

      Originally posted by barry
      Ludders, imagine you are in a game show, and there are three doors with only a prize behind one of them. You pick. 1 in 3 chance right.? Correct. Now, host eddie mcguire unveils one of the doors which he knows doesnt have a prize, then offers you the chance to switch doors (the other one that is left). Do you ? On the above comment, I assume you wouldnt.

      But you should, because Eddie has offered to drop your odds from 1 in 3 to 1 in 2. Take it man!

      The moral of the story is that Langdon was probably a 1 in 20 chance of being a decent player when picked at #65, but has shown enough now to be a pick 26 or there abouts. Eddie has shown you the other door!
      You'd be wrong about that Barry. I'm an expert in the Monty Hall Problem and have often explained it to others.

      This discussion about Harley and the fish that got away has nothing to do with door selection or probablities, but rather an internal contradiction in your logic.

      Comment

      • barry
        Veterans List
        • Jan 2003
        • 8499

        Originally posted by Ludwig
        You'd be wrong about that Barry. I'm an expert in the Monty Hall Problem and have often explained it to others.

        This discussion about Harley and the fish that got away has nothing to do with door selection or probablities, but rather an internal contradiction in your logic.
        Are you trying to use an argument that supports my point of view as a reason to dispute it?

        Comment

        • jono2707
          Goes up to 11
          • Oct 2007
          • 3326

          Originally posted by barry
          Are you trying to use an argument that supports my point of view as a reason to dispute it?
          Why do you want to argue anyway? RWO isn't as nice a place to be around anymore....

          Comment

          • barry
            Veterans List
            • Jan 2003
            • 8499

            Originally posted by jono2707
            Why do you want to argue anyway?
            Tell me about it. I offer up a very insightful insight brought about by years of experience and a brain the size of trumps, and all they want to do is quibble about minor details.

            RWO isn't as nice a place to be around anymore....
            Off season is like that.

            Comment

            • stevoswan
              Veterans List
              • Sep 2014
              • 8543

              Originally posted by barry
              Teams that would want them are ones who need the points for a father son or academy pickup.

              If you take out the trades, rookies, father-son, academy, zone or any other draft concession types, you'll find slim picking in the late 30's and above.
              You don't know that for sure. As has been already stated, we've obtained some absolute gems at pick 40 or higher.....have some faith.

              Comment

              • R-1
                Senior Player
                • Aug 2005
                • 1042

                I have charts on hit rates of picks (live picks only, father/sons etc are excluded):

                This one shows the percentage of players taken in each band of picks who get to 100 games. 20 to 40 isn't a huge step down, and even 40 to 50 has a bit of a hit rate. Take several shots in these ranges and you're likely to get something out of it. Three picks in the 30s is probably going to have odds around that of two picks in the 20s.

                Barry is right that a 1 in 3 hit rate of 100 gamers from picks 30-40 is a good outcome, but that's also true of all picks past pick 10.

                survival.png

                This one is the log-regressed value we use for each pick at HPN. The main noteworthy feature is, compared to the AFL's Draft Value Index (academy points) the picks in the back end of the second round have more value - the AFL undervalues them compared to what they actually produce. A general rule of thumb is if you've got say pick 22 from early in the second round, you should trade for any two picks before about pick 35 (Port's trade in 2016 that netted us 9 and 19 got them 14, 17 and 31 was a bet something like this that worked out for both parties - Florent and Hayward on one side, Powell-Pepper and Marshall on the other, jury still out on Atley and Drew).

                2017DPVC-Dots.jpg

                Example theoretical equivalent expected values are: pick 5 likely to give about what two pick 25s or three pick 43s do. The "sure thing" status of very high picks drops off a lot after about pick 3, and pick 5 usually goes well but has some notably ordinary recruits attached to it such as Xavier Clark, Matt Buntine, Brock McLean and Jarrad Grant.

                Those values are all a bit theoretical, and clubs simply would not trade backwards just to get the equal odds suggested here. They'd want significantly greater odds from sacrificing the high pick. In reality everyone puts a premium on the early picks because they're surer things, they have prestige, you have a wider range of choices about who to take, and because list spots are finite. Carrying multiple guys as bets on getting at least one good best 22 player has a cost in terms of list spots. If you did it three years in a row, you might be carrying ten or twelve guys in the hope of getting what 3 high picks could give you.

                (Plus I think list managers have a bias towards not trading early picks because of reputation risk).

                But clubs do trade backwards occasionally, and to good effect. They do much more in US sports with drafts, and I reckon we're a bit too conservative about trading down to take multiple shots in the AFL. This is, after all an unusually team oriented game, and 22 good players is a lot of players, and hard to get quickly. Quantity has its own value, and spreading your risk over more players means less eggs in one high pick basket who might blow an ACL. I also think the "trade backwards and take multiple picks" approach probably needs to be done as a long term game. There's an unavoidable failure rate to taking a higher quantity of second and early third rounders, but if done consistently over several years it should smooth out the probabilities and ensure enough successful strikes to help build a team.

                Upshot: If we get Blakey at 7 that leaves picks 37, 38 and 40, and at least one of those 3 later guys would be expected to work out as well, and sometimes a second guy might work out too. Especially if we choose to believe Sydney are, through Beatson and co, better at drafting and developing from the middle part of the draft than the average club is. These averages and probabilities do, after all, include players selected by the clubs who are worst at drafting and developing players.

                blakey bid.PNG
                Last edited by R-1; 23 October 2018, 04:39 PM.

                Comment

                • 707
                  Veterans List
                  • Aug 2009
                  • 6204

                  Originally posted by barry
                  After Blakey, picks 37,38 and 40 are not really worth much. If you get one 100 gamer out of that lot, you're doing well.
                  I hope we upgrade those to a 20's pick
                  We've picked up a stack of top quality players around that mark, Micky O, No.37, Reid, Parker etc

                  Great graphs R-1.

                  It seems the top of the draft is firming with the top 6 settling down to not include a bid on Blakey. Walsh, Lukocious, Rankine, BKing, Rozee, the other Vic mid?. So pick 7 or later suits us just fine.
                  Last edited by 707; 23 October 2018, 04:43 PM.

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                  • barry
                    Veterans List
                    • Jan 2003
                    • 8499

                    Great post R-1. Very insightful.
                    I wonder if their is a time aspect to this as well. As the years have gone by and clubs invest more into the draft selection process, the hidden gems at 40+ become rarer and rarer.

                    I mean a 250 gamer at pick 55 means he got overlooked by each club 3 times already.

                    Comment

                    • R-1
                      Senior Player
                      • Aug 2005
                      • 1042

                      Originally posted by barry
                      Great post R-1. Very insightful.
                      I wonder if their is a time aspect to this as well. As the years have gone by and clubs invest more into the draft selection process, the hidden gems at 40+ become rarer and rarer.

                      I mean a 250 gamer at pick 55 means he got overlooked by each club 3 times already.
                      To my understanding, even in US drafts with older draft ages and college sport as a proving ground, there's still a stubborn failure rate for higher picks.

                      As for us, I suspect the art of reading the injury, wellbeing, and attitude futures of even the most promising 17 year olds hasn't gotten a lot better, judging by the continued whiffs like Jono O'Rourke and hard luck cases like Anthony Morabito and Jack Trengove on one side, and gems like Luke Parker and Tom McDonald on the other.

                      But maybe clubs are getting better at isolating the "good risk" guys and separating them from the project players. That would mean a higher success rate in taking the better chances inside 40, and less guys slipping past, but without clubs actually getting better at sorting and arranging the players within the top 40 or so.
                      Last edited by R-1; 23 October 2018, 04:56 PM.

                      Comment

                      • Ludwig
                        Veterans List
                        • Apr 2007
                        • 9359

                        Originally posted by R-1
                        To my understanding, even in US drafts with older draft ages and college sport as a proving ground, there's still a stubborn failure rate for higher picks.

                        As for us, I suspect the art of reading the injury, wellbeing, and attitude futures of even the most promising 17 year olds hasn't gotten a lot better, judging by the continued whiffs like Jono O'Rourke and hard luck cases like Anthony Morabito and Jack Trengove on one side, and gems like Luke Parker and Tom McDonald on the other.

                        But maybe clubs are getting better at isolating the "good risk" guys and separating them from the project players. That would mean a higher success rate in taking the better chances inside 40, and less guys slipping past, but without clubs actually getting better at sorting and arranging the players within the top 40 or so.
                        I don't know the kind of resourses you have, R-1, but it would be interesting rating each club's draft against expectations. I think you already have the algorithm for computing the player versus expectations for each year since drafted. You should be able to value the draft expectations for each club based on pick number and compare that to actual performance as the years roll by. Drafts can be grouped by a period of years, so you could show how clubs compare for drafts from, e.g. 2010-2014.

                        Champion Data must have something like this, because I've seen on Fox, usually with David King, a chart showing how every player ranks by age versus expectations.

                        Comment

                        • R-1
                          Senior Player
                          • Aug 2005
                          • 1042

                          We did this analysis as part of the draft chapter of the book we contributed to (Footbalistics), the short answer is from 1993 to 06, Geelong did by far the best against expectations. Sydney were 6th, and all the top sides except St Kilda won flags from the resulting draft hauls.
                          Last edited by R-1; 23 October 2018, 06:47 PM.

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                          • Markwebbos
                            Veterans List
                            • Jul 2016
                            • 7186

                            That graph says you are more likely to get a 100 gamer or 150 gamer out of picks 31-40 than you are from picks 21-30

                            Comment

                            • R-1
                              Senior Player
                              • Aug 2005
                              • 1042

                              Originally posted by Markwebbos
                              That graph says you are more likely to get a 100 gamer or 150 gamer out of picks 31-40 than you are from picks 21-30
                              Yeah, it gets pretty marginal around this range, they're a fairly flat set of picks and I'd probably chalk up the slight differences between those ranges as random chance.

                              Comment

                              • mcs
                                Travelling Swannie!!
                                • Jul 2007
                                • 8149

                                Robinson and Marsh goneski:
                                List changes - sydneyswans.com.au
                                "You get the feeling that like Monty Python's Black Knight, the Swans would regard amputation as merely a flesh wound."

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