2021 trading, drafting and list management: players and personnel

[0918330512]

I have a different view.

Everyone is entitled to a view

I want all former Swans to do well and I wish the best for them. Wishing the Crows won’t do well only disrespects Matthew Nicks who gave great service to the Swans as a player.

Fair enough. My view is that I appreciate all Swans for their service to the club. They all contributed to our heritage in some way. Their exploits at other clubs I mostly couldn’t care less about. There are some exceptions, but not many.

And disrespecting Nicksy? It’s not supporting the Crows irrespective of who their coach is. In a Venn diagram, those 2 circles can be completely separate.

I can’t comprehend the bitterness towards Dawson.

People can change direction. They may say they want to do one thing and then change their minds.

You are 100% correct. 100%!

Jordan has his own interests to be concerned about. He has no obligation to a club who happened to draft him 6 years ago. That was a lottery. If he was taken one pick earlier this would have been Freo’s problem.

But for the last 6 years he’s been ours. & we’ve loved him (mostly). But now, just like Jordan changing his mind, Swans supporters can certainly change their feelings toward him.

The Australian Government signed the AUKUS pact and now will getter better nuclear submarines than the diesel French submarines. Many people call off engagements because they realise that something is not right with their fiancé. In the I’m Unimformed world, Australia would get poorer submarines and many people would go into ill-advised marriages.

Submarines?! WTAF?! And some might now view our relationship with Dawson as an ill-advised marriage. You don’t. Some might. Perhaps leave it be and let Swans fans grieve his departure in their own way. Not everyone wants or needs unsolicited counselling on how to feel about past players.

I think fans should show the upmost for former players and coaches. When TB12 and Gronk return to Gillette Stadium on the 4th of October to play The Patriots they will both receive an almighty cheer and much love from the crowd. I suggest people watch that game and take note of the reaction as TB12 runs through that tunnel.

I think NFL has little place or relevance to a Swans forum. I thought it when Matt80 posted similar piffle and I still think it. I also think I’m not especially fond of someone telling me - as a Swans fan - what I should think. Matt80 used to tell RWO that often and I didn’t appreciate it then either.

I will be hoping for the very best for Dawson.

I will be hoping the best for him after he retires. Until then, he’ll just be another player, in a opposition club who is in the road of the Swans potential success.

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A club can still pick a KPP with pick four.

This points business is also misleading. Theoretically a club could accumulate enough 3rd rounders to equal a number one pick. But a handful of duds and ho hums would never equal the best kid in the draft.

True. But our record suggests we could burn our first round pick again or have a hand full of potential all Australians picked in the 3rd round

[dejavoodoo44]

A club can still pick a KPP with pick four.

This points business is also misleading. Theoretically a club could accumulate enough 3rd rounders to equal the number one pick. But a handful of duds and ho hums would never equal the best kid in the draft.

Yes, but the general point is, that midfielders and KPFs, usually make up the higher echelons of the draft. Then the KPDs, ruckmen, medium sized forwards and defenders, small forwards, etc, come later. So, if our main priority is a KPD or a ruck; then a few shots in the second round, may be a better option than one shot in the first round. Especially when there's less documented form.

[Ludwig]

The Australian Government signed the AUKUS pact and now will getter better nuclear submarines than the diesel French submarines. Many people call off engagements because they realise that something is not right with their fiancé. In the I’m Unimformed world, Australia would get poorer submarines and many people would go into ill-advised marriages.

Correct me if I've misunderstood you, but I think I see what you're getting at here.

The new US made nuclear submarines, although a hazard to world health and safety, have the benefit of the UGM-73 Poseidon nuclear missiles with up to 14 warheads.

Are you suggesting that this gives us the option of taking out all of South Australia if we don't like the Crows offer for Dawson?

A bit aggressive, but footy is a man's game where death is just around the corner, if not from concussion then from direct hits from an H-bomb or maybe even an F-bomb.

[AppleCore]

My feelings about Dawson are disappointment. I'm sad that he's not going to be with the Swans next year. But I really don't think it's proper to go beyond that, since we don't know the circumstances involved in the contract negotiations. Some folks on our side of the table may not have handled it properly, they may have insulted Dawson, they may have lied to him. Who knows? Dawson may have had some valid reasons for wanting to leave, other than money or the go home factor, but perhaps a much better monetary offer from Adelaide, plus family pressure to return to SA, might have pushed him over the line. And then of course there's always the manager/agent, who would be pushing for the deal that earns him the biggest commission.

With Kane Cornes and Michaelangelo Rucci out there in Adelaide, I'll bet the questions will be asked. Whether they get answered or not is anyone's guess.

Your response sounds very reasonable but overlooks several points: Jordan was tardy in informing the club of his intentions; appeared to deliberately mislead fans regarding his intentions; Sydney retained faith in Jordan despite a number of unproductive years; Jordan "comes good" as a footballer and almost immediately decides to leave Sydney and cash in; the recompense for our loss will likely be minimal; and (from what I have read) both Jordan and his lady friend are from Robe (i.e. a long way from Adelaide).

[goswannies]

Your response sounds very reasonable but overlooks several points: Jordan was tardy in informing the club of his intentions; appeared to deliberately mislead fans regarding his intentions; Sydney retained faith in Jordan despite a number of unproductive years; Jordan "comes good" as a footballer and almost immediately decides to leave Sydney and cash in; the recompense for our loss will likely be minimal; and (from what I have read) both Jordan and his lady friend are from Robe (i.e. a long way from Adelaide).

Robe is a long way from Adelaide (just under 4 hours by car), but it’s within the SA borders - so there have been little within state travel restrictions between Robe and Adelaide during covid.

Sydney to Adelaide is a 2 hour flight (not including all the waiting around) but with repeated border closures it may as well be a month or two. Plus the impracticality of living in Sydney during the season and being able to return home to see family during the season. Also it’s not just about Dawson going home. His family can visit him if in Adelaide.

I’m not trying to justify it for Jordan. And from my personal experience of being away from loved ones for a very long time and yet we remain close, I can’t really agree. For a myriad of personal relatable reasons I simply cannot resonate with Jordan’s (and many like him) situation and decision. But everyone is different and entitled to their differences and opinions and I can empathise and understand.

With regards to the tardiness I telling the club, again I can actually see his perspective. He would hardly tell them during the finals series. That could destabilise the team. Before the B&F? If he wanted to be with friends and team mates to share their conclusion of the season with them, possibly not the right time either (hasn’t worked out well for other players at other clubs some of whom have been banned from attending). He did it around the exit interview time IIRC, which is probably when it should have been. It’s not like he held out until the end of the trade period, surprising the club at the last minute and limiting their ability to negotiate.

Misleading fans? Probably would have upset us more if he did it during the season (& it wasn’t that long post season that he did announce it - also they were still undergoing the turmoil of trying to get back to Sydney. Challenging times). And I guess that realistically, does he really have an obligation to us? I doubt he knows to many of us personally.

Sydney retaining faith in him during unproductive years? I guess he didn’t ask to be drafted by us. And all clubs are ruthless when cutting/delisting players or offering them for trade. Loyalty isn’t often a two way street, or often a one way street. It’s all too often a parking space at best and when you move from the parking space, someone else fills the void.

Cashing in? I’ve often wished another employer would try and lure me away for more money. Would I go? Who knows, but I’m fairly certain I’d give it plenty of thought.

For me, this time of year is the worst. I’m emotionally invested in the club and players. I hate seeing them go. I’d love to see Dawson remain a Swan for life. But times are different.

In the days of zoning, players were tied to clubs but often had a affinity for the club as a result. They could remain playing in close proximity to where they originally grew up. These days players are drafted to a club. They might develop an affinity and love for the club. But there is probably no real reason that the have to. And with list sizes being relatively small and clubs being forced to release players to acquire new ones, they’re is limited loyalty from clubs to players. It’s a harsh reality, but AFL footy is a business.

Jordan will always be a Swan to me. I won’t support him in fruit tingle colours, but I hope he will feel welcome as a past player (I will always hope that all past players will have the same bond and affection that Hanners has always seemed to display for the Swans).

[Bangalore Swans]

Correct me if I've misunderstood you, but I think I see what you're getting at here.

The new US made nuclear submarines, although a hazard to world health and safety, have the benefit of the UGM-73 Poseidon nuclear missiles with up to 14 warheads.

Are you suggesting that this gives us the option of taking out all of South Australia if we don't like the Crows offer for Dawson?

A bit aggressive, but footy is a man's game where death is just around the corner, if not from concussion then from direct hits from an H-bomb or maybe even an F-bomb.

The reference to the subs was a real world example about how the Australia government changed their minds on the French deal despite reassuring them for years that the deal was good to go. Australia changed their minds because they believed that nuclear powered subs would give them better defence capability.

Like the Australian government, Dawson is changing his mind because he believes that The Crows offers him something better.

I think my example of fiancés not going through with marriages is probably a better example.

[Mark26]

A couple of second rounders??? He is worth a top ten pick points wise. However I will say it all depends on the quality of the draft.
This year's draft is fairly even after the first four picks.. well into the 40's according to the recruiters.

What JD is worth and what we get could be disparate positions. There is very little chance that Adelaide will offer us a top ten pick. Why would they? They have most of the power in these negotiations because he's out of contract. If roles were reversed, would you expect that we would cough up pick 4?

As I said before, I think they will offer a second rounder and an exchange of latter picks. I hope at best, what we can negotiate for would be this year's second and next year's. I trust our recruiters to use those picks wisely.

[MattW]

Robe is a long way from Adelaide (just under 4 hours by car), but it’s within the SA borders - so there have been little within state travel restrictions between Robe and Adelaide during covid.

Sydney to Adelaide is a 2 hour flight (not including all the waiting around) but with repeated border closures it may as well be a month or two. Plus the impracticality of living in Sydney during the season and being able to return home to see family during the season. Also it’s not just about Dawson going home. His family can visit him if in Adelaide.

I’m not trying to justify it for Jordan. And from my personal experience of being away from loved ones for a very long time and yet we remain close, I can’t really agree. For a myriad of personal relatable reasons I simply cannot resonate with Jordan’s (and many like him) situation and decision. But everyone is different and entitled to their differences and opinions and I can empathise and understand.

With regards to the tardiness I telling the club, again I can actually see his perspective. He would hardly tell them during the finals series. That could destabilise the team. Before the B&F? If he wanted to be with friends and team mates to share their conclusion of the season with them, possibly not the right time either (hasn’t worked out well for other players at other clubs some of whom have been banned from attending). He did it around the exit interview time IIRC, which is probably when it should have been. It’s not like he held out until the end of the trade period, surprising the club at the last minute and limiting their ability to negotiate.

Misleading fans? Probably would have upset us more if he did it during the season (& it wasn’t that long post season that he did announce it - also they were still undergoing the turmoil of trying to get back to Sydney. Challenging times). And I guess that realistically, does he really have an obligation to us? I doubt he knows to many of us personally.

Sydney retaining faith in him during unproductive years? I guess he didn’t ask to be drafted by us. And all clubs are ruthless when cutting/delisting players or offering them for trade. Loyalty isn’t often a two way street, or often a one way street. It’s all too often a parking space at best and when you move from the parking space, someone else fills the void.

Cashing in? I’ve often wished another employer would try and lure me away for more money. Would I go? Who knows, but I’m fairly certain I’d give it plenty of thought.

For me, this time of year is the worst. I’m emotionally invested in the club and players. I hate seeing them go. I’d love to see Dawson remain a Swan for life. But times are different.

In the days of zoning, players were tied to clubs but often had a affinity for the club as a result. They could remain playing in close proximity to where they originally grew up. These days players are drafted to a club. They might develop an affinity and love for the club. But there is probably no real reason that the have to. And with list sizes being relatively small and clubs being forced to release players to acquire new ones, they’re is limited loyalty from clubs to players. It’s a harsh reality, but AFL footy is a business.

Jordan will always be a Swan to me. I won’t support him in fruit tingle colours, but I hope he will feel welcome as a past player (I will always hope that all past players will have the same bond and affection that Hanners has always seemed to display for the Swans).

A magnanimous post.

I think we all feel some (invariably high) degree of disappointment at Jordan leaving.

We feel an emotional affinity with the club and players and hope the players do too. The club (within) sustains on the foundation of players and officials who stayed; who share our commitment to the club.

We hope that affinity trumps money and convenience.

It hasn't in Jordan's case. That's disappointing. We looked forward to cheering for him as one of us and ultimately didn't have the same ambition.

I certainly don't feel any negative personal feelings toward him. He seems a good guy. He had his reasons.

But I'm not sure about the 'always be a Swan to me' bit. The only past players I have felt that about are Jetta and Hannebery. A large part of it was that they were Premiership players; another part was that I understood and felt sympathetic towards their reasons for leaving. Lewis, I don't begrudge at all. Hannebery was on us, and while it was perfectly rational on the club's part, again it's disappointing we weren't able to cheer for him for his entire career, as expected.

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Meanwhile, strangely buoyed by the Sinkers re-signing. It gives us a little freedom not to be committed to spending any draft capital on another mature ruckman, but wouldn't be surprised to see us draft a good young one to develop.

[dejavoodoo44]

Is Sinkers getting a new contract official, or is it still in the media rumour stage? If he has signed, I'm quite pleased by that. Even if he spends much of next year battling away in the VFL, I still feel that would be money well spent, as he's likely to set a good example to our youngsters.

[ugg]

Sinclair re-signing is being reported by Fox footy. Nothing official yet

[i'm-uninformed2]

We need to look at this draft and note that the players available at pick 4 are midfielders. Adelaide don't want to give it up and we really don't need it. I'm not interested in pick 4. I would have liked PAs pick 16 though.

The real action for us starts at around pick 10. We have pick 12/14 which should be right to land us a good KPP prospect. There will also be several good KPPs and ruckmen available in the 2nd round.

If we can get Adelaide's 2022 1st rounder, I would be interested in that in lieu of 2nd rounders.

We have to realise that losing Aliir and Dawson has made it difficult for us to seriously compete for a premiership next year, and probably 2023 as well, against a few of the more mature teams. We can't go all out for a premiership next year, but rather have a draft and trade strategy that targets a few years down the road when players like Gulden, Campbell and McDonald are in their 4th years as AF:L players.

I'm not saying a premiership is impossible, but it's smarter to play the odds and go with the long game.

I tend to think this is around the mark. We might have pinched a flag this year, and we might pinch one next year.

But I wouldn't be compromising the list build we need for the post-Buddy era. Our job with the pending trade to Adelaide is to bundle picks we can use to target KPPs in particular. Whether that is getting our hands on 23 (and something similar next year), and then using it, 31/33 and whatever we get for George to push up further in this year's draft to that 15-25 range. Or whether it is giving us options for next year as well, including the cover of potential academy picks, I'll leave to smarter minds than me.

Or think about it this way: our job the prior two drafts was to secure some talent, and have sufficient points heading into 2020 draft to cover Gulden and Campbell. We'll forever be grateful that Papley's bad kicking in the final round vs Geelong last year meant we got the bonus of McDonald. But it was job done.

Our job this year and next is to round out the list of talented young mids and runners we have, so we have a cherry ripe crew coming through together as they head into 2023 and beyond, and we still have the benefit of Parker, Heeney, Mills and Papley (mainly of the current mid-20s players) being on our list.

[Roadrunner]

A magnanimous post.

I think we all feel some (invariably high) degree of disappointment at Jordan leaving.

We feel an emotional affinity with the club and players and hope the players do too. The club (within) sustains on the foundation of players and officials who stayed; who share our commitment to the club.

We hope that affinity trumps money and convenience.

It hasn't in Jordan's case. That's disappointing. We looked forward to cheering for him as one of us and ultimately didn't have the same ambition.

I certainly don't feel any negative personal feelings toward him. He seems a good guy. He had his reasons.

But I'm not sure about the 'always be a Swan to me' bit. The only past players I have felt that about are Jetta and Hannebery. A large part of it was that they were Premiership players; another part was that I understood and felt sympathetic towards their reasons for leaving. Lewis, I don't begrudge at all. Hannebery was on us, and while it was perfectly rational on the club's part, again it's disappointing we weren't able to cheer for him for his entire career, as expected.

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Meanwhile, strangely buoyed by the Sinkers re-signing. It gives us a little freedom not to be committed to spending any draft capital on another mature ruckman, but wouldn't be surprised to see us draft a good young one to develop.

Well said MattW and Goswannies- expressed beautifully. AFL is a professional sport and business so loyalty can’t have the same meaning as in the very old VFL days, and even then, players moved around. Remember our famous “ Foreign Legion”? Then the 10 year Rule saw Moppsy Rantall move to Norf. And of course Ronald Dale Barrassi to the Blues.

Nowadays players of all clubs are much closer than they used to be and only unfriendly on the battlefield. All aggression is left behind as soon as the final whistle blows and they start chatting to each other and pat each other on the back- I for one think this is a great thing. However, it makes it much easier for players to swap clubs and go to battle with new teammates. I had trouble understanding this until I realised that all clubs provide similar environments for their players though we think our Bloods Culture is special.

Jordan would have weighed it all up and made his decision. Leaving hurts our team and us fans. We just have to make the best of it and move on- it’s the nature of the beast. I’m thankful for the games he played for us but unfortunately he won’t be part of our premiership team: his loss!

[Bangalore Swans]

Of course it’s bitter and irrational. I’m perfectly happy to come on here and be considered about all sorts of things. But when a player - who by the way gave us 18 months of good service over a six year investment by the club - lies, walks out and jeopardises our chance of winning a flag in the next five years, then I’m going to feel how I feel. I know this is the way it’s done now, and clubs can be brutal too, but I don’t give two hoots. And I certainly don’t give two hoots if someone thinks poorly of me for it.

Why do you naturally defer to the popular view that Dawson was a slow developer, the Swans were very patient with him and that he’s only given the Swans 18 months of good play out of 6 years?

There may be an alternate view. In my opinion, Dawson looked an excellent player from the 2016 preseason games. I thought that he could be in the round 1 2016 team. Instead he was banished in the reserves for most of the next two seasons. In 2016 Florent and Hayward were drafted and the Swans were falling over themselves to get them both in the 2017 senior team. Dawson, the better player, continued to miss out.

Seeing these inferior young players getting picked ahead of him probably hurt Dawson. He remembers the early reserve struggle and may himself believe that he derserved to be picked ahead of them.

I think like Mitchell and Aliir that Dawson was not a Longmire favourite and like Mitchell and Aliir spent unacceptable time in the reserves.

People talk about development in the reserves, but in my view you may have had a better Dawson and a Swan for life if the same opportunities given to Hayward were given to Dawson early in his career.

[Sandridge]

Robe is a long way from Adelaide (just under 4 hours by car), but it’s within the SA borders - so there have been little within state travel restrictions between Robe and Adelaide during covid.

Sydney to Adelaide is a 2 hour flight (not including all the waiting around) but with repeated border closures it may as well be a month or two. Plus the impracticality of living in Sydney during the season and being able to return home to see family during the season. Also it’s not just about Dawson going home. His family can visit him if in Adelaide.

I’m not trying to justify it for Jordan. And from my personal experience of being away from loved ones for a very long time and yet we remain close, I can’t really agree. For a myriad of personal relatable reasons I simply cannot resonate with Jordan’s (and many like him) situation and decision. But everyone is different and entitled to their differences and opinions and I can empathise and understand.

With regards to the tardiness I telling the club, again I can actually see his perspective. He would hardly tell them during the finals series. That could destabilise the team. Before the B&F? If he wanted to be with friends and team mates to share their conclusion of the season with them, possibly not the right time either (hasn’t worked out well for other players at other clubs some of whom have been banned from attending). He did it around the exit interview time IIRC, which is probably when it should have been. It’s not like he held out until the end of the trade period, surprising the club at the last minute and limiting their ability to negotiate.

Misleading fans? Probably would have upset us more if he did it during the season (& it wasn’t that long post season that he did announce it - also they were still undergoing the turmoil of trying to get back to Sydney. Challenging times). And I guess that realistically, does he really have an obligation to us? I doubt he knows to many of us personally.

Sydney retaining faith in him during unproductive years? I guess he didn’t ask to be drafted by us. And all clubs are ruthless when cutting/delisting players or offering them for trade. Loyalty isn’t often a two way street, or often a one way street. It’s all too often a parking space at best and when you move from the parking space, someone else fills the void.

Cashing in? I’ve often wished another employer would try and lure me away for more money. Would I go? Who knows, but I’m fairly certain I’d give it plenty of thought.

For me, this time of year is the worst. I’m emotionally invested in the club and players. I hate seeing them go. I’d love to see Dawson remain a Swan for life. But times are different.

In the days of zoning, players were tied to clubs but often had a affinity for the club as a result. They could remain playing in close proximity to where they originally grew up. These days players are drafted to a club. They might develop an affinity and love for the club. But there is probably no real reason that the have to. And with list sizes being relatively small and clubs being forced to release players to acquire new ones, they’re is limited loyalty from clubs to players. It’s a harsh reality, but AFL footy is a business.

Jordan will always be a Swan to me. I won’t support him in fruit tingle colours, but I hope he will feel welcome as a past player (I will always hope that all past players will have the same bond and affection that Hanners has always seemed to display for the Swans).

Great post goswannies! Especially the second last paragraph. I would presume that most of us RWOers have loved the Swans - and only the Swans - for most of our lives. (A shout out to royboy who had his original club taken from him and, thankfully, chose us to follow us instead.) Most players don't get to represent the club they followed as kids so we can't really expect Swans players to love our club the way we do. Of course, it's fantastic if they grow to love the Bloods and a lot of them do.

I'm not quite as magnanimous as you, goswannies, though. When players choose to leave us, I have no further interest in them.

[longmile]

Any word on Sam Reid yet?

With Hewett and Dawson likely out, and Reid too, that is a lot of money/salary cap now available