ROK - Re signs with swans for 4 years. (Confirmed)

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  • liz
    Veteran
    Site Admin
    • Jan 2003
    • 16773

    If the Dorks manage to persuade O'Keefe he wants to play for less than his market value and then they flounder around all over a no 16 draft pick they are completely and utterly deluded about the real value of picks. As I wrote elsewhere a couple of days ago, the no 16 pick doesn't excite me in the slightest. Give me O'Keefe any day of the week. Indeed, if we had the no 16 pick I'd willingly give it up just to keep him at the club.

    But commonsense / past practice dictates that the Swans deserve some scant compensation for the loss of one of their top 5 players, even if he is an old man of 28. The expected value of pick 16 is miniscule in comparison to even three years of O'Keefe, especially for a club in the position of Hawthorn.

    If you don't believe me, have a look at the rate at which players taken around that mark turn into even good players, let alone potential matchwinners. Yes, with whatever pick you have there is a teeny weeny chance of picking up a top-20 in the comp type player, or even a top-50 in the comp type. But outside the top 10 - arguably even the top 5 - the chances of finding that gem don't decrease significantly as the picks get lower.

    I'd argue that ROK should have - if they were rational - more value to Carlton than pick 6. Their greatest asset at the moment isn't Judd, or Gibbs, or Kruezer, though they are very attractive assets. But sooner or later they need to decide they want to get up there amongst the top 4 or so and at least give themselves a chance of winning a flag. And surely their immediate window is while they still have Fevola at the peak of his powers. That means the next 3-4 years. Which is exactly the period of time they can reasonably expect ROK to keep on playing very high quality footy. Even if they do snare a potential top-5 midfielder with pick 6, it will only be a fluke if they become a matchwinner before that player has 4 or so years under his belt, minimum. Even amongst those sooperstars, the Bartels, Coreys, Abletts, Hodges, Cooneys of this world are more typical than Judd and Selwood.

    ROK may not be enough on his own to elevate them to the level of the Hawks and Cats but surely they have faith that some of the rest of their kindergarten other than Gibbs, Murphy and Kruezer have the potential to become very good players, and that the natural development from these will also help elevate them. But even if it does take more than 3 or 4 years, the worst that will happen is those young'uns gain from an injection of more high class experience into the team and learn something from ROK's professionalism. It's that, or add another teen to flap around for a few years so their midfield can peak just as Fev hangs up his boots.

    On a related matter, I am very pleased for Melbourne that they seem intent on keeping Bruce around the place. It would be easy for them to ship him off for a draft pick and throw the "rebuilding" line / need more picks line at their fans. But Bruce is an excellent player in a club severely lacking in excellent players in that age range and I'm sure they'll get more development out of Pettard, Bate, Jones, Morton etc from the chance to play alongside him than they will from the chance to draft a Willoughby, DOK, Pfeiffer or the like.

    Comment

    • Xie Shan
      Senior Player
      • Jan 2003
      • 2929

      Should 'Pelchen' be added to the RWO swear filter?

      Comment

      • Lucky Knickers
        Fandom of Fabulousness
        • Oct 2003
        • 4220

        Love him or hate him, Pelchen does a very good job for his club.

        Comment

        • barryswan
          On the Rookie List
          • Oct 2008
          • 17

          As I said in another post if the Swans trade ROK for only a pick 16 (the very last round 1 pick) then I would question the negotiating skills of the group. On the other hand, if it is true that no other club has any interest in ROK with any meaningful trade option then the Swans are severly restricted with their options.

          Come on Carlton, Collingwood, Geelong, Bulldogs? wake up to yourselves you're assisting Hawthorn in widening the gap between your teams and theirs.

          Comment

          • Bas
            Veterans List
            • Jan 2003
            • 4457

            [QUOTE=barryswan;417549] On the other hand, if it is true that no other club has any interest in ROK QUOTE]


            Or any other Swans as a matter of fact.

            We should approach Carlton and offer to throw Davo in for Pick 6 as well.

            Davo to Freo, still waiting. 3rd Round pick.
            In memory of my little Staffy - Dicey, 17.06.2005 to 1.12.2011- I'll miss you mate.

            Comment

            • barryswan
              On the Rookie List
              • Oct 2008
              • 17

              Originally posted by liz
              If the Dorks manage to persuade O'Keefe he wants to play for less than his market value and then they flounder around all over a no 16 draft pick they are completely and utterly deluded about the real value of picks. As I wrote elsewhere a couple of days ago, the no 16 pick doesn't excite me in the slightest. Give me O'Keefe any day of the week. Indeed, if we had the no 16 pick I'd willingly give it up just to keep him at the club.

              But commonsense / past practice dictates that the Swans deserve some scant compensation for the loss of one of their top 5 players, even if he is an old man of 28. The expected value of pick 16 is miniscule in comparison to even three years of O'Keefe, especially for a club in the position of Hawthorn.

              If you don't believe me, have a look at the rate at which players taken around that mark turn into even good players, let alone potential matchwinners. Yes, with whatever pick you have there is a teeny weeny chance of picking up a top-20 in the comp type player, or even a top-50 in the comp type. But outside the top 10 - arguably even the top 5 - the chances of finding that gem don't decrease significantly as the picks get lower.

              I'd argue that ROK should have - if they were rational - more value to Carlton than pick 6. Their greatest asset at the moment isn't Judd, or Gibbs, or Kruezer, though they are very attractive assets. But sooner or later they need to decide they want to get up there amongst the top 4 or so and at least give themselves a chance of winning a flag. And surely their immediate window is while they still have Fevola at the peak of his powers. That means the next 3-4 years. Which is exactly the period of time they can reasonably expect ROK to keep on playing very high quality footy. Even if they do snare a potential top-5 midfielder with pick 6, it will only be a fluke if they become a matchwinner before that player has 4 or so years under his belt, minimum. Even amongst those sooperstars, the Bartels, Coreys, Abletts, Hodges, Cooneys of this world are more typical than Judd and Selwood.

              ROK may not be enough on his own to elevate them to the level of the Hawks and Cats but surely they have faith that some of the rest of their kindergarten other than Gibbs, Murphy and Kruezer have the potential to become very good players, and that the natural development from these will also help elevate them. But even if it does take more than 3 or 4 years, the worst that will happen is those young'uns gain from an injection of more high class experience into the team and learn something from ROK's professionalism. It's that, or add another teen to flap around for a few years so their midfield can peak just as Fev hangs up his boots.

              On a related matter, I am very pleased for Melbourne that they seem intent on keeping Bruce around the place. It would be easy for them to ship him off for a draft pick and throw the "rebuilding" line / need more picks line at their fans. But Bruce is an excellent player in a club severely lacking in excellent players in that age range and I'm sure they'll get more development out of Pettard, Bate, Jones, Morton etc from the chance to play alongside him than they will from the chance to draft a Willoughby, DOK, Pfeiffer or the like.
              Liz,

              Everything you have said makes sense but, the question is when was the last time the Hawks were seen to be ripped off in any trade deal? I'd say quite confidently not in recent memory. They seem to have a good group that are not just football people but also business people, which is why I brought up the notion of a possible lack of negotiating skills with the seemingly football centric Sydney contingent as opposed to the more rounded possibly better equipped Hawthorn group.

              I hope we are both wrong though and the Swans push hard and succeed in making the most of a bad situation.

              Comment

              • NMWBloods
                Taking Refuge!!
                • Jan 2003
                • 15819

                Originally posted by barryswan
                when was the last time the Hawks were seen to be ripped off in any trade deal?
                Brett O'Farrell for first two draft picks in 1998.
                Captain Logic is not steering this tugboat.

                "[T]here are things that matter more and he's reading and thinking about them: heaven, reincarnation. Life and death are the only things that are truly a matter of life and death. Not football."

                Comment

                • Bas
                  Veterans List
                  • Jan 2003
                  • 4457

                  Originally posted by barryswan
                  Liz,

                  Everything you have said makes sense but, the question is when was the last time the Hawks were seen to be ripped off in any trade deal?
                  Brett O'Farrell in 1998. We got Pick 4 - Fitzy
                  In memory of my little Staffy - Dicey, 17.06.2005 to 1.12.2011- I'll miss you mate.

                  Comment

                  • chammond
                    • Jan 2003
                    • 1368

                    Originally posted by Donners
                    SEN were also reporting the Green > O'Keefe > Pick 16 three-way deal.
                    Is this for real?
                    I'd take Green as a straight swap for O'Keefe without a second thought. Put a bloke with his skills into a good team and he could be Brownlow material.

                    Comment

                    • Bas
                      Veterans List
                      • Jan 2003
                      • 4457

                      That was unanimous.
                      In memory of my little Staffy - Dicey, 17.06.2005 to 1.12.2011- I'll miss you mate.

                      Comment

                      • liz
                        Veteran
                        Site Admin
                        • Jan 2003
                        • 16773

                        Originally posted by barryswan
                        Liz,

                        Everything you have said makes sense but, the question is when was the last time the Hawks were seen to be ripped off in any trade deal? I'd say quite confidently not in recent memory. They seem to have a good group that are not just football people but also business people, which is why I brought up the notion of a possible lack of negotiating skills with the seemingly football centric Sydney contingent as opposed to the more rounded possibly better equipped Hawthorn group.

                        I hope we are both wrong though and the Swans push hard and succeed in making the most of a bad situation.
                        I agree with you that there appears to be some scope for improvement in their negotiating strategy. They should engage someone like Prof Jeremy Davis from the AGSM who taught me Negotiating Strategy in the most wonderful course I did there (although an elective, it was the most "compulsory" course there because it's reputation went before it).

                        I actually think the Swans have tried to develop a long-term negotiating strategy. Slipping into game theory mode, they see it as a repeat game rather than treating each as a one-off. And they have signalled how they want to be viewed by trading fairly for assets they've wanted (and while they've paid decent dollar, I don't think in hindsight we've overpaid for many of the acquired assets given what typical draftees actually do, rather than what fantasies people have about their expectations.)

                        But sometimes you have to be unpredictable and do things that don't seem to be rational in the short term. As Williams (and Pelchen) did with the Nick Stevens situation. Which is why I'd let ROK go into the PSD rather than deal with Hawthorn unless the Hawks are prepared to put up a trade which reflects the value they'll get from O'Keefe.

                        Comment

                        • Bas
                          Veterans List
                          • Jan 2003
                          • 4457

                          Originally posted by liz
                          But sometimes you have to be unpredictable and do things that don't seem to be rational in the short term. As Williams (and Pelchen) did with the Nick Stevens situation. Which is why I'd let ROK go into the PSD rather than deal with Hawthorn unless the Hawks are prepared to put up a trade which reflects the value they'll get from O'Keefe.
                          I agree, let's pull their bluff. Having said that, it seems we are already in negotiation for Green with Pick 16.

                          If he wants to play in Melbourne, there is Melbourne in the PSD.
                          In memory of my little Staffy - Dicey, 17.06.2005 to 1.12.2011- I'll miss you mate.

                          Comment

                          • reigning premier
                            Suspended by the MRP
                            • Sep 2006
                            • 4335

                            Have we reached the longest thread in the history of RWO yet?

                            Can we close the thread when we do because this starting to get tedious?

                            Comment

                            • barryswan
                              On the Rookie List
                              • Oct 2008
                              • 17

                              Originally posted by liz
                              I agree with you that there appears to be some scope for improvement in their negotiating strategy. They should engage someone like Prof Jeremy Davis from the AGSM who taught me Negotiating Strategy in the most wonderful course I did there (although an elective, it was the most "compulsory" course there because it's reputation went before it).

                              I actually think the Swans have tried to develop a long-term negotiating strategy. Slipping into game theory mode, they see it as a repeat game rather than treating each as a one-off. And they have signalled how they want to be viewed by trading fairly for assets they've wanted (and while they've paid decent dollar, I don't think in hindsight we've overpaid for many of the acquired assets given what typical draftees actually do, rather than what fantasies people have about their expectations.)

                              But sometimes you have to be unpredictable and do things that don't seem to be rational in the short term. As Williams (and Pelchen) did with the Nick Stevens situation. Which is why I'd let ROK go into the PSD rather than deal with Hawthorn unless the Hawks are prepared to put up a trade which reflects the value they'll get from O'Keefe.
                              I'd call their bluff as well (if they are only offering Pick 16) with the possibility of losing him to the preseason draft. From that position there is no chance he will end up at Hawthorn. It would be especially disappointing after all the hard work they have done in meeting him and coming to some agreement to lose him at the post. On the other hand if they could engineer a top 10 pick (could be construed in some quarters as quite high for O'Keefe at his age) I would jump at it.

                              Comment

                              • barryswan
                                On the Rookie List
                                • Oct 2008
                                • 17

                                Originally posted by reigning premier
                                Have we reached the longest thread in the history of RWO yet?

                                Can we close the thread when we do because this starting to get tedious?
                                Wait a second, your username suggests you are one of the enemy.

                                Is that why you want us to stop our own little trade for O'Keefe?

                                Comment

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