Paul Roos

[Darren Thomson]

We are nowhere near as bad as Freo, until today we were competitive.

Until the last quarter we were competitive, clearly outrun by the Blues, we do not have the leg speed to go with many teams now, and the style of game we are playing is suited to the players we have. If we had a couple of real speedsters with good skills running thru the midfield, Roos would change his gameplan in 30 seconds. How anyone can bag a coach that brought us a flag, with a list that was nowhere near the best list on paper, with little more than a blue collar midfield, and undersized backline, and one power forward, when all and sundry had written us off as wooden spooners, is beyond me. Look closely at the list of players he has at his disposal this year. Most coaches would run and hide, but Roosy has made the most of it. Hopefully we don't win another game this year, get some game time into young blokes, get Mick to 300, and earn a hight draft pick for next year to trade or whatever. This constant criticism of Roos is ludicrous, bag the recruiting department if you have to bag someone. But if anyone who is bagging Roos thinks they can do a better job with the current list, go right ahead. IDIOTS

[ROK Lobster]

What follows is not a rant, but could be better expressed with a little more time - sorry.

I have said it before that I thought Roos was a good coach and that he got the more out of the team in 2005/06 than most would have. I have never thought him a tremendous gameday coach (not that it the be all and end all - clearly it is not) and I never liked the talking down of the team. We had some very skillful players - and still do - but the Bloods ethos prevented that from being celebrated. I have no doubt that the "Cortina mindset" contributed to a premiership (as did a lot of other factors, some of which were not within anyone's control), I said at the timne however that such an approach was short sighted. I have no doubt that the club is a fairly unhappy place at the moment and think that player empowerment, leadership groups etc polay a role in that. Asylums should not be run by lunatics and players should not run football clubs. As soon as a member of the leadership group goes off the rails - either behaviourally or in terms of form - there are problems. Buchanon and Ablett are surely causing as many headachees around the club as Hall at the moment. But, I think that Roos biggest weakness was the clebebration of mediocrity. A team of Cortinas only works when some mof them perform like Ferraris now and then (and I am not only talking about Nick Davis' semi final). I think that one of the reasons why the club has thus far failed to produce a talented new generation is because the prevailing ideology under Roos has been team work and discpline over flair and individuality. I don't think it ever let us see Schneider reach his full potential. I don't think it did much for Buchy. It probably served McVeigh well but he could have developed to the same point under a system that encouraged diversity of approaches. I wonder how many of those youngsters that seem to have taken a while to develop have had their development retarded by an approach that is about sacrificing the individual for the greater good. Roos' approach worked with a team of hardened and developed footballers who then united in focus. It worked for 4 years. It is not sustainable. He has shown himself to be inflexible and I think unlikely to change. Damian probably has a point - he probably has earnt an opoportunity to have a crack. But I don't think he will be able to develop a side from pretty much scratch. Our next premiership coach will be Brett Kirk who will inherit a dysfunctional core of hardened players, draft intelligently and focus a team bordering on rabble into a flag winning unit.

[ROK Lobster]

Until the last quarter we were competitive, clearly outrun by the Blues, we do not have the leg speed to go with many teams now, and the style of game we are playing is suited to the players we have. If we had a couple of real speedsters with good skills running thru the midfield, Roos would change his gameplan in 30 seconds. How anyone can bag a coach that brought us a flag, with a list that was nowhere near the best list on paper, with little more than a blue collar midfield, and undersized backline, and one power forward, when all and sundry had written us off as wooden spooners, is beyond me. Look closely at the list of players he has at his disposal this year. Most coaches would run and hide, but Roosy has made the most of it. Hopefully we don't win another game this year, get some game time into young blokes, get Mick to 300, and earn a hight draft pick for next year to trade or whatever. This constant criticism of Roos is ludicrous, bag the recruiting department if you have to bag someone. But if anyone who is bagging Roos thinks they can do a better job with the current list, go right ahead. IDIOTS

This is the sort of tripe that I do not understand.

Roos = great coach because we won the flag with a team of nobodies.

Roos cannot be blamed for a poor season because he has a team of nobodies.

IDIOTIC

[Bloody Hell]

What follows is not a rant, but could be better expressed with a little more time - sorry.

I have said it before that I thought Roos was a good coach and that he got the more out of the team in 2005/06 than most would have. I have never thought him a tremendous gameday coach (not that it the be all and end all - clearly it is not) and I never liked the talking down of the team. We had some very skillful players - and still do - but the Bloods ethos prevented that from being celebrated. I have no doubt that the "Cortina mindset" contributed to a premiership (as did a lot of other factors, some of which were not within anyone's control), I said at the timne however that such an approach was short sighted. I have no doubt that the club is a fairly unhappy place at the moment and think that player empowerment, leadership groups etc polay a role in that. Asylums should not be run by lunatics and players should not run football clubs. As soon as a member of the leadership group goes off the rails - either behaviourally or in terms of form - there are problems. Buchanon and Ablett are surely causing as many headachees around the club as Hall at the moment. But, I think that Roos biggest weakness was the clebebration of mediocrity. A team of Cortinas only works when some mof them perform like Ferraris now and then (and I am not only talking about Nick Davis' semi final). I think that one of the reasons why the club has thus far failed to produce a talented new generation is because the prevailing ideology under Roos has been team work and discpline over flair and individuality. I don't think it ever let us see Schneider reach his full potential. I don't think it did much for Buchy. It probably served McVeigh well but he could have developed to the same point under a system that encouraged diversity of approaches. I wonder how many of those youngsters that seem to have taken a while to develop have had their development retarded by an approach that is about sacrificing the individual for the greater good. Roos' approach worked with a team of hardened and developed footballers who then united in focus. It worked for 4 years. It is not sustainable. He has shown himself to be inflexible and I think unlikely to change. Damian probably has a point - he probably has earnt an opoportunity to have a crack. But I don't think he will be able to develop a side from pretty much scratch. Our next premiership coach will be Brett Kirk who will inherit a dysfunctional core of hardened players, draft intelligently and focus a team bordering on rabble into a flag winning unit.

You can't coach greatness out of a player. No matter the coach, no matter the player.

[ernie koala]

Until the last quarter we were competitive, clearly outrun by the Blues, we do not have the leg speed to go with many teams now, and the style of game we are playing is suited to the players we have. If we had a couple of real speedsters with good skills running thru the midfield, Roos would change his gameplan in 30 seconds. How anyone can bag a coach that brought us a flag, with a list that was nowhere near the best list on paper, with little more than a blue collar midfield, and undersized backline, and one power forward, when all and sundry had written us off as wooden spooners, is beyond me. Look closely at the list of players he has at his disposal this year. Most coaches would run and hide, but Roosy has made the most of it. Hopefully we don't win another game this year, get some game time into young blokes, get Mick to 300, and earn a hight draft pick for next year to trade or whatever. This constant criticism of Roos is ludicrous, bag the recruiting department if you have to bag someone. But if anyone who is bagging Roos thinks they can do a better job with the current list, go right ahead. IDIOTS

You've been hoodwinked by Roos and his double speak crap. He inherited an excellent, well balanced, list with most in their prime. One power forward you say ??...plus Mick, Davo, O'keefe, Schnieder. Ball and Jolly in the Ruck.etc.
And yes I do look closely at the list we have now...It's completely unbalanced in age and skill. Bottoming out as we head into compromised drafts, leaving the club vunerable to years in the wilderness. Roos has overseen this transition as head coach...IMO ROK is on the money, his "we're a team of fighting plodders" won't work again in the near future...He needs to construct and inspire a new group with new ideas..Time will tell if he has the flexability to reinvent. I hope I'm wrong but, like ROK, I doubt it.

[Darren Thomson]

You've been hoodwinked by Roos and his double speak crap. He inherited an excellent, well balanced, list with most in their prime. One power forward you say ??...plus Mick, Davo, O'keefe, Schnieder. Ball and Jolly in the Ruck.etc.
And yes I do look closely at the list we have now...It's completely unbalanced in age and skill. Bottoming out as we head into compromised drafts, leaving the club vunerable to years in the wilderness. Roos has overseen this transition as head coach...IMO ROK is on the money, his "we're a team of fighting plodders" won't work again in the near future...He needs to construct and inspire a new group with new ideas..Time will tell if he has the flexability to reinvent. I hope I'm wrong but, like ROK, I doubt it.

The way he coaches in no way resembles the player he was, so I firmly believe that given a different list he could reinvent the game plan to suit the players

[The Big Cat]

I went to Sydney for a game in 2003 and was talking to Goodsey on the Friday before the game at the weekend. He was saying enthusiastically that Roosy had a plan that they would play finals that year and the next and in 2005 they would be ready to have a real shot at the flag.

Never doubt the fact the Roos knows what he is doing.

Many teams have a premiership window. Roos has been trying to keep it open until it was slammed shut midway through this year. It was HIS DUTY to wring as much out of this premiership group as he could. Now he's starting to do the cabinet making to construct our new window.

[Midfield]

What follows is not a rant, but could be better expressed with a little more time - sorry.

I have said it before that I thought Roos was a good coach and that he got the more out of the team in 2005/06 than most would have. I have never thought him a tremendous gameday coach (not that it the be all and end all - clearly it is not) and I never liked the talking down of the team. We had some very skillful players - and still do - but the Bloods ethos prevented that from being celebrated. I have no doubt that the "Cortina mindset" contributed to a premiership (as did a lot of other factors, some of which were not within anyone's control), I said at the timne however that such an approach was short sighted. I have no doubt that the club is a fairly unhappy place at the moment and think that player empowerment, leadership groups etc polay a role in that. Asylums should not be run by lunatics and players should not run football clubs. As soon as a member of the leadership group goes off the rails - either behaviourally or in terms of form - there are problems. Buchanon and Ablett are surely causing as many headachees around the club as Hall at the moment. But, I think that Roos biggest weakness was the clebebration of mediocrity. A team of Cortinas only works when some mof them perform like Ferraris now and then (and I am not only talking about Nick Davis' semi final). I think that one of the reasons why the club has thus far failed to produce a talented new generation is because the prevailing ideology under Roos has been team work and discpline over flair and individuality. I don't think it ever let us see Schneider reach his full potential. I don't think it did much for Buchy. It probably served McVeigh well but he could have developed to the same point under a system that encouraged diversity of approaches. I wonder how many of those youngsters that seem to have taken a while to develop have had their development retarded by an approach that is about sacrificing the individual for the greater good. Roos' approach worked with a team of hardened and developed footballers who then united in focus. It worked for 4 years. It is not sustainable. He has shown himself to be inflexible and I think unlikely to change. Damian probably has a point - he probably has earnt an opoportunity to have a crack. But I don't think he will be able to develop a side from pretty much scratch. Our next premiership coach will be Brett Kirk who will inherit a dysfunctional core of hardened players, draft intelligently and focus a team bordering on rabble into a flag winning unit.

I respect your opinion but disagree with you entirely apart from the last sentence.

[Alibi Monday]

What follows is not a rant, but could be better expressed with a little more time - sorry.

I have said it before that I thought Roos was a good coach and that he got the more out of the team in 2005/06 than most would have. I have never thought him a tremendous gameday coach (not that it the be all and end all - clearly it is not) and I never liked the talking down of the team. We had some very skillful players - and still do - but the Bloods ethos prevented that from being celebrated. I have no doubt that the "Cortina mindset" contributed to a premiership (as did a lot of other factors, some of which were not within anyone's control), I said at the timne however that such an approach was short sighted. I have no doubt that the club is a fairly unhappy place at the moment and think that player empowerment, leadership groups etc polay a role in that. Asylums should not be run by lunatics and players should not run football clubs. As soon as a member of the leadership group goes off the rails - either behaviourally or in terms of form - there are problems. Buchanon and Ablett are surely causing as many headachees around the club as Hall at the moment. But, I think that Roos biggest weakness was the clebebration of mediocrity. A team of Cortinas only works when some mof them perform like Ferraris now and then (and I am not only talking about Nick Davis' semi final). I think that one of the reasons why the club has thus far failed to produce a talented new generation is because the prevailing ideology under Roos has been team work and discpline over flair and individuality. I don't think it ever let us see Schneider reach his full potential. I don't think it did much for Buchy. It probably served McVeigh well but he could have developed to the same point under a system that encouraged diversity of approaches. I wonder how many of those youngsters that seem to have taken a while to develop have had their development retarded by an approach that is about sacrificing the individual for the greater good. Roos' approach worked with a team of hardened and developed footballers who then united in focus. It worked for 4 years. It is not sustainable. He has shown himself to be inflexible and I think unlikely to change. Damian probably has a point - he probably has earnt an opoportunity to have a crack. But I don't think he will be able to develop a side from pretty much scratch. Our next premiership coach will be Brett Kirk who will inherit a dysfunctional core of hardened players, draft intelligently and focus a team bordering on rabble into a flag winning unit.

I think you've put your point forward fairly clear there ROK - I finally understand your POV. You do yourself no justice with your OP (or every other post for that matter) by simply stating that Roos should pack his bags because he's a hack.

I too have held the reservations about the team ethos and how the process self corrects when the designated leaders can't set the standard on the field. To see Ablett get dropped actually restores faith that these guys are not protected or immune. But the truth is we have absolutely NO idea of what makes a leader inside the club and how the ethos effects the team. What you can't argue with is that it was driving force behind the team that delivered a flag. Whether you believed they were fooled by Roos or not, the important thing is they believed it and that held water.

The next point you raised is that team sacrifice has stifled the natural flair of the youngsters. Well of course there's been some of that. That occurs to everyone in every field of every occupation. I'm sure even Chris Judd would prefer not to have to tackle if there was no downside. Are you trying to argue that individual showmanship is more important than team success? Or are you of the opinion that if the youngsters are given an unaccountable free reign that we'd have won more matches? If you answer to yes the either of those, then you're making the assertion that your game plan is better than the judgement of over 1000 AFL games of experience in the Roos, Blakey, Longmire, Berbatov, Ireland etc. That's certainly a surprisingly confident position. I'd suggest that the game plan 04-08 was designed around the personnel at the club during that period in order to win games, and it certainly did that.

Which leaves us with now. I can't remember a club change strategic direction so quickly and openly when it became evident the era was over. Roos has officially stated that we're playing youngsters for the rest of the year and we're holding on to our high draft picks. Surely this augers well for the Roos naysayers. What's unlikely to change are the basics that Roos (and every other coach for that matter) preaches regarding hardness at the ball and skills. I expect these will take time to develop in conjunction with new tactics to counteract the leading teams. We haven't had a significant dip at the talent pool for 15 years, so in the next 3-5 years I'm expecting a much improved and skillful side to emerge and it won't look anyway near as tired as it has over the last 2 years.

Is Roos the man to devise these tactics and disciplines? Who knows, I guess another premiership is the only way to appease the vengeful. But if I had a choice, he's the man I'd back.

[liz]

I
The next point you raised is that team sacrifice has stifled the natural flair of the youngsters.

I think that premise is one of the biggest flaws.

Exhibit A - Geelong are the hardest working, most disciplined team of the last few years. They always know where a team mate will be, which enables them to play the high risk footy they play so successfully. Work and team sacrifice don't stifle their brilliance - it is the framework that allows the individual brilliance within that team to sparkle.

Exhibit B - St Kilda have this year started playing incredibly disciplined, team orientated footy. Their success largely rests on the enormous pressure that every single player who wears their guernsey exerts all around the ground. Work and team sacrifice don't stifle their briliance - it is the framework that allows the individual brilliance within that team to sparkle.

Exhibit C- Adelaide don't have the same level of individual brilliance in their team that the Saints or Cats have but for much of this season they have played at a devasting level because they are so incredibly well drilled. They have a significant number of reasonably inexperienced players and probably have no right yet to be playing at the level they are. But they do because of the work and team sacrifice.

I could go on. For instance I could point out how the team structures and disciplines actually faciliatated Nick Davis kicking at least 3 of his 4 final quarter goals against Geelong in 2005. But I would have thought the evidence is pretty compelling that team ethic and at times sacrifice may not be sufficient to deliver a premiership-potential team but it is absolute necessary.

[SCOTTIE]

[QUOTE]

You've been hoodwinked by Roos and his double speak crap. He inherited an excellent, well balanced, list with most in their prime. One power forward you say ??...plus Mick, Davo, O'keefe, Schnieder. Ball and Jolly in the Ruck.etc

.

This is absolute nonsense, you are viewing the list with sentimentality and a view to some players more recent deeds rather than their position at the time. Jolly has gone on to be a great ruckman but was no-one when recruited, Schneider has done ok at the Saints but was never a top tier forward, Davis inconsitently handy but not top tier, Jason Ball was in his last year of footy.

Consider this, in 2005 we won the flag with one All Australian player - Geelong won with 7 All Australians in 2007, Brisbane in 2002 in the middle of the 3-peat had six. Certainly reflects that ours was not a stunning list and that if not for application and direction from the coach a premiership would have been a pipe dream.

You say the list discussion is Roos oublespeak but think about why the swans have been consistently been written off by experts at the start of each year and yet made the finals. Is it because (as some people like to think) these advisers are Melbourne focused and hate the swans? Or is it possible that these guys actually know a lot about footy, look at the list and see it isn't that strong - its a fact rather than Roos doublespeak. Why have we made finals then? Coaching, game plan and commitment.

[ernie koala]

This is absolute nonsense, you are viewing the list with sentimentality and a view to some players more recent deeds rather than their position at the time. Jolly has gone on to be a great ruckman but was no-one when recruited, Schneider has done ok at the Saints but was never a top tier forward, Davis inconsitently handy but not top tier, Jason Ball was in his last year of footy.

Consider this, in 2005 we won the flag with one All Australian player - Geelong won with 7 All Australians in 2007, Brisbane in 2002 in the middle of the 3-peat had six. Certainly reflects that ours was not a stunning list and that if not for application and direction from the coach a premiership would have been a pipe dream.

You say the list discussion is Roos oublespeak but think about why the swans have been consistently been written off by experts at the start of each year and yet made the finals. Is it because (as some people like to think) these advisers are Melbourne focused and hate the swans? Or is it possible that these guys actually know a lot about footy, look at the list and see it isn't that strong - its a fact rather than Roos doublespeak. Why have we made finals then? Coaching, game plan and commitment.

To contend that an ordinary list can win a flag, miss another by a point, because they have a good coach... is NONSENSE. You need, at the very least, a very good list and a very good coach, with an effective game plan. Your view that the 05 list was ordinary is ridiculous.
So let's objectively look at the approximate list for the 05 finals:

Backline: Bolton Barry Matthews
Halfback : Kennelly, LRT,Crouch
A hard checking hard running well balanced unit, which conceded the least amount of goals both in 05 and 06...yeah very ordinary.

Centre : Williams Goodes Dempster
A brownlow medalist, an elite seasoned midfielder, a highly skilled kid

Halforward : O'Keefe, Hall, Davis
Forwardline : Schnieder, O'Loughlin, Buchanan
One of the best, if not the best forward list in the comp in 05-06

Followers : Ball, Kirk , Bolton
An elite tap ruckmen, best midfield tagger, workhorse

Interchange : Fosdike, Jolly, Ablett, Bevan
An elite running midfielder, a fantastic backup ruckmen, two absolute team players.

This is not an ordinary list. This is an excellent well balanced list, most in the prime age bracket, with plenty of skill and hardness.
The question isn't whether Roos was a very good coach in 05-06. It is whether his record of list management, recruiting, inflexable game style from 07- 09 has left us in good shape for the future. And is he the guy to rebuild and reinvent the team. Personally I doubt it.

[floppinab]

failed to produce a talented new generation is because the prevailing ideology under Roos has been team work and discpline over flair and individuality. I don't think it ever let us see Schneider reach his full potential. I don't think it did much for Buchy. It probably served McVeigh well but he could have developed to the same point under a system that encouraged diversity of approaches.

I understand what you are saying here but I think it's more around the team work and discipline required to carry out what was a very stoppage focussed game plan at the time. We very rarely (and still rarely do) setup to allow space particularly forward, for the flair merchants like Johnson, Davis, Rioli, Jurrah, Milne to work their magic.
That said it's interesting to note that most of those players can now be seen spending a lot of team oriented and disciplined time doing the workhorse stuff in the middle of the ground for their respective teams.
As always it's about getting the balance right.

[Lohengrin]

A hard checking hard running well balanced unit, which conceded the least amount of goals both in 05 and 06...yeah very ordinary.
A brownlow medalist, an elite seasoned midfielder, a highly skilled kid
One of the best, if not the best forward list in the comp in 05-06
An elite tap ruckmen, best midfield tagger, workhorse
An elite running midfielder, a fantastic backup ruckmen, two absolute team players.

This is not an ordinary list. This is an excellent well balanced list, most in the prime age bracket, with plenty of skill and hardness.

I think we had a solid team in 2005 that executed the lock-down game strategy exceptionally well. We also benefited from the lack of a complete opposition team (ie: in most other years there is a team that is pretty much the full package. There wasn't one in 2005-06).

The backline really personifies the strategy. Bolton is the standout and the rest not really elite, except perhaps Kennelly in parts. As a team group, combined with the massive lockdown across the field plus the most determined and effective flooding in the game, the Swans strangled the opposition and stopped them from scoring.

Williams and Goodes were critical to our midfield. Kirk a special case.
Midfield did well despite an overall lack of talent (really depth was the issue), especially in running midfielders, again because of a tough lock-down game plan.

Forward line looked to be one of the best in the competition on paper. However, we were one of the lowest scoring teams, again because of the game plan.

I think Roos can be credited with the grand final because of his game plan. It played to some of the strengths of the team (eg: disciplined work effort and great ruck combo, although it underplayed the strong forward line) and overcame the weaknesses (eg: B-grade midfield, undersized defence).
Without this game plan we almost certainly would not have done as well in 2005-06 as we just didn't have the players in a normal, open style game. But we needed a lot of luck (probably more than normal - injuries, opposition, Davis) for that game plan to get us there in those years.

Whether he can build a new team with a new style remains to be seen. IMO I don't think the minimal circumstantial evidence so far suggests he can.

[ernie koala]

I think we had a solid team in 2005 that executed the lock-down game strategy exceptionally well. We also benefited from the lack of a complete opposition team (ie: in most other years there is a team that is pretty much the full package. There wasn't one in 2005-06).

Whether he can build a new team with a new style remains to be seen. IMO I don't think the minimal circumstantial evidence so far suggests he can.

I suppose in judging how good our list was, and thereby gauge the Coaches performance, means judging it relative to the other 15 sides. On that basis, IMO, we had an excellent list because it was as good as the other finalists, incl the Eagles, and better than the others.
I agree with your summary, as I've also stated. From the evidence available from 07-09..(ie; lack of flexability to game style, list management, recruiting) I doubt Roos is the man to rebuild and reinvent the Swans, as he seems totally set in his ways.